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Old 08-07-2014, 10:13 PM   #61
Razorbak
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1996 SL2
Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Ok everyone,

The engine is out!
Man, you crazy! No one in their right mind would EVER attempt to rebuild a 1996 Saturn!!!

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Old 08-07-2014, 10:49 PM   #62
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Woah. You are waking up some old legends with this thread.

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Old 08-08-2014, 12:21 AM   #63
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

"Woah. You are waking up some old legends with this thread"

Yeah, me and RB go way back....

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Old 08-08-2014, 11:56 PM   #64
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Oil pan is off...

Rear Seal & Baffle.JPG

I tried to remove the rear seal retainer, by lightly taping and prying at the
the tab (below the center of crank, on the outer edge, in the picture).

But it won't budge. However, I am being very gentle with it.

There may be a "seal" holding it to the block case.

Is it ok to be rough and tap it out or pry hard on the tab?

...
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Old 08-09-2014, 08:10 AM   #65
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

From the link I posted above, there is an RTV seal between the block and carrier, https://plus.google.com/photos/11597...26189011152484 The 2 large dowels located the carrier and all bolts have to be removed. There are small pry points on either side. a thin blade can be worked between the carrier and block without scratching to get the seal broken. You do not hammer it off.

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Old 08-09-2014, 03:26 PM   #66
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Rear Seal and Carrier is out.

Just be careful when you pry. It comes out in the direction of the dowels toward the transaxle. If you use a flat blade screwdriver, I would recommend wrapping the tip with tape, paper or a towel.

Front (transaxle) View
Rear Main Seal & Carrier - Front.jpg

Rear (engine) View
Rear Main Seal & Carrier - Rear.jpg

Ok, now I'm at the Crank and Crank Top Caps.
Crank & Top Caps.jpg

There were markings on the 5 Crank Caps on the raised squares
on the Exhaust Side (See Picture):
A number followed by an arrow point toward the timing side

Transaxle Side ----> to ------> Timing Side

Intake Side
[5->] [4->] [3->] [2->] [1->]
Exhaust Side



Anything to measure ("feel") before I loosen them?
Should I loosen pistons first?

Advice on order of removal and/ or measurements would be appreciated.

I can take pics, if anyone needs to see detail.

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Old 08-09-2014, 04:22 PM   #67
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Not much point in measuring, note which side the numbers are on. You will have to tap them gently on the ends with a wood or plastic hammer to get the cap off the dowel. What the bearings look like is much more important that some dead bearing plastigauge drill. The crank will go to the shop to be properly measured along with the block. You willnee2 2 pieces to pit ove4 the rod bolts so as to not scratch the crank when the pistons come out the top. Turn engine over now and get the carbon ridge out of the top of the cylinders, then you mark the piston rods and caps with different colored paint on the intake side. The pistons must come out the top only and must come out now. Must have that short length of hose over each bolt before pushing out the top. Use a pair of 1 1/2" - 2" long pieces of fuel hose or actual crank protectors. In your case crank protectors will be easier. Use these whenever pistons are removed or replaced.

You will install new bearings and the size its determined by the crank measurements. These measurements are carried out to 4 places to the right of the decimal which is beyond any measuring tool you are going to have available, same with block. So there are several parts that get trucked off to the machine shop which I hope you have already located or that will soon become an item of discussion as the quality and performance of the rebuilt engine hinges on the quality of this shop.

You are approaching the stage where you actually find out what this will cost based on the block and crank measurements.

Last edited by OldNuc; 08-09-2014 at 04:32 PM..

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Old 08-09-2014, 05:15 PM   #68
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Ok....review

Remove carbon ridge

Remove piston caps and pistons first
-- Mark piston heads with sharpie
-- Mark the piston caps on intake side
-- remove caps, protect cylinder by covering bolts with hose
-- Push piston out top of engine, re-assemble caps
-- Bag and label if needed, each piston assembly

Then Crank caps and crank next
-- Crank cap numbers are on exhaust side
-- bag and label crank caps & bearings

Assuming endplay of crank or pistons is not important at this point?

Going to remove ridge, be back in a few...

...
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Old 08-09-2014, 05:25 PM   #69
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You willnee2 2 pieces to pit ove4 the rod bolts so as to not scratch the crank when the pistons come out the top. Turn engine over now and get the carbon ridge out of the top of the cylinders, then you mark the piston rods and caps with different colored paint on the intake side. The pistons must come out the top only and must come out now. Must have that short length of hose over each bolt before pushing out the top. Use a pair of 1 1/2" - 2" long pieces of fuel hose or actual crank protectors. In your case crank protectors will be easier. Use these whenever pistons are removed or replaced.
Great advice, OldNuc. Here are a few photos that illustrate what you are discussing...

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...d-by-t/cat/500
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...lor-co/cat/500
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...ds-1-4/cat/500

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
You will install new bearings and the size its determined by the crank measurements. These measurements are carried out to 4 places to the right of the decimal which is beyond any measuring tool you are going to have available, same with block. So there are several parts that get trucked off to the machine shop which I hope you have already located or that will soon become an item of discussion as the quality and performance of the rebuilt engine hinges on the quality of this shop.

You are approaching the stage where you actually find out what this will cost based on the block and crank measurements.
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...k-from/cat/500
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...rapped/cat/650

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Old 08-09-2014, 06:24 PM   #70
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Ridge is gone....Continuing...

Remove piston caps and pistons first
-- Mark piston heads with sharpie
-- Mark the piston caps on intake side
-- remove caps, protect cylinder by covering bolts with hose
-- Push piston out top of engine, re-assemble caps
-- Bag and label if needed, each piston assembly

Then Crank caps and crank next
-- Crank cap numbers are on exhaust side
-- bag and label crank caps & bearings

Just for giggles, the endplay for the pistons maxed out at about 0.0100
very snug. FSM (1998 Saturn FSM Tweaked) says: 0.0065 to 0.01713

On to first piston....

...
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Old 08-09-2014, 06:57 PM   #71
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

That tweaked FSM is a very old pirated copy and might have some errors verify every critical step with an outside source specifically the head torquing procedure. The pistons are marked on top for front and in most cases they get replaced anyway. Rod orientation is your major concern. From a properly running engine the only item of interest is thrust bearing condition as that is going to determine if you are shopping for a new crank or sending that one out to me measured.

Nice clear pictures of each rod and main bearing set would be nice along with high res pix of any marked up journal on the crank.

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Old 08-09-2014, 08:02 PM   #72
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Pistons out, labeled, factory marks were there as promised, all marks on intake side, matching piston head divots.

Then Crank caps and crank next
-- Crank cap numbers are on exhaust side
-- bag and label crank caps & bearings

Do you want pictures of each pair of bearings inside (crank rod side)?

And, same for main bearings inside (crank rod side)?

Just clarifying, pix coming up after the main bearing caps removed...

Hold on...brb...

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Old 08-09-2014, 09:22 PM   #73
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Crank is out, pictures are being assembled.

Question: How does using a hose on the piston bolts prevent the piston bolt shoulder (not the bolt shank) from hitting the side wall on the way out?

I should have asked this before, because it seemed obvious based on the manuals and pix, but everyone seemed concerned about the bolts.
But, let me tell you, that does not, at least for me prevent the "shoulders" from hitting the cylinder walls. However, I was careful to go slow and steady to avoid this. Did I miss something here?


Pictures soon...

...
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:45 PM   #74
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Crankshaft Pictures

Crankshaft Main Bearings - Top Cap
CrankMainBearings-TopCap-5-4-3-2-1.jpg
( Left to Right 5-4-3-2-1 )

I can see some pits, I can see some grooves.
Looks like #1 might be a concern, but what do I know...


Crankshaft Main Bearings - Engine Side
CrankMainBearings-EngineSide-5-4-3-2-1.jpg
( Left to Right 5-4-3-2-1 )

Crankshaft Journals - Left - Transmission Side
CrankShaft Journals_1.jpg

Crankshaft Journals - Center
CrankShaft Journals_2.jpg

Crankshaft Journals - Right - Timing Chain Side
CrankShaft Journals_3.jpg

Journals look good from what I can see.
I cleaned and examined all around.


Piston Bearings next....

...
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:33 PM   #75
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

You are not really concerned with cylinder walls but highly concerned with the crank journal surfaces. On reinstall you get to worry about both.

You will be replacing the complete timing set but be sure to keep the old crank sprocket as it will be used on engine assembly to line up oil pump gears, it just slides off the crank.

Crank looks salvageable and #1 and #5 mains show some pitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Crank is out, pictures are being assembled.

Question: How does using a hose on the piston bolts prevent the piston bolt shoulder (not the bolt shank) from hitting the side wall on the way out?

I should have asked this before, because it seemed obvious based on the manuals and pix, but everyone seemed concerned about the bolts.
But, let me tell you, that does not, at least for me prevent the "shoulders" from hitting the cylinder walls. However, I was careful to go slow and steady to avoid this. Did I miss something here?


Pictures soon...

Last edited by OldNuc; 08-09-2014 at 10:40 PM..

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Old 08-09-2014, 10:39 PM   #76
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

The hot idle oil pressure is determined in part by the rod and main bearing clearances and much over 0.0015 with hot oil and you will be at minimum pressure. The crank measurements will determine if a regrind is in order but most likely it will be very close.

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Old 08-09-2014, 11:33 PM   #77
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

FYI:

While turning engine on the stand to let oil drain and examining the crank side, bits and pieces of what I think was the impeller blade to a water pump I replaced about 6 years ago. (Current pump looks good, btw).

Also, the heater hose fitting on the intake manifold and the heater hose fitting on the block, near the thermostat, are damaged at the end. The "beveled" edge that helps hold the hose on is gone, for both fittings. Years ago, when I replaced the heater core, I noticed this on the intake fitting, but did not understand what the cause could be, at the time.
Heater Fitting - Block.jpg

Is it possible that these fitting ends plus the impeller blade could have gotten in there somehow? I don't think there is any connection to oil galley from the coolant. So never mind. Old head gasket is fine, btw.

Piston Bearings
-----------------------------------------------
Top Caps (4-3-2-1) (Trans ---> to ---> Timing)
Piston Bearings - Top Caps - 4-3-2-1.jpg
Some appearance of circular blotches.
All 4 bearing thicknesses look similar from the side, no apparent wear.

Rod Side (4-3-2-1)
Piston Bearings - Rod Side - 4-3.jpgPiston Bearings - Rod Side - 2-1.jpg
Same appearance of circular blotches.
All 4 bearing thicknesses look similar from the side, no apparent wear.

Main Bearings
-----------------------------------------------
#3 Thrust Bearing - Transmission Side - Worn (heavy on the clutch or normal?)
Main Bearing #3 Thrust - Transmission Side.jpg

#3 Thrust Bearing - Timing Chain Side - Varnished
Main Bearing #3 Thrust - Timing Chain Side.jpg

...
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:46 PM   #78
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Clutch side wear normal, do not worry. The rod bearings show even wear but do show wear so crank may end up being ground undersize. Thrust surface on crank may be close to limit as well. There is a spec for the face to face distance on the thrust surfaces and you can check that as it is either OK or not.

As to the steel fittings at the thermostat opening and intake, they will screw out with some proper diligence and a trip to the pick and pull will get good ones. That type of corrosion is caused by running exhausted or weak coolant mix and it does not take long either. As you found these corroded away I suspect you can blame the other owner for that. The one you photographed is shot and beyond use and I suspect the other is as well.

Take the oil pump cover off the timing cover and remove the oil pump gears, front seal, and top mount studs. The idea is to ship all stripped aluminum off to the hot tank and the block for an additional measuring along with the crank.

Who is rebuilding the head?

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Old 08-09-2014, 11:51 PM   #79
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Stripping Down the Engine for the Shop:

Engine
-- All parts are off except:
---- Heater hose fitting - I would like to replace this if possible, ok to remove?
---- Engine Hex Plugs - Do I need to bother?
---- Head, Rear Seal Carrier, or other Dowels - Do I need to bother?

Pistons
-- Remove Rings? Bearings?
-- Send Piston Assembly without top cap and bearings?

Crank
-- Remove Timing Sprocket
-- Anything else before sending to shop?

Shooting to have it at the shop for Tuesday.
What do I need to get them to check for and in what order?

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Old 08-10-2014, 12:05 AM   #80
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Stripping Down the Engine for the Shop:

Engine
-- All parts are off except:
---- Heater hose fitting - I would like to replace this if possible, ok to remove?
---- Engine Hex Plugs - Do I need to bother?
---- Head, Rear Seal Carrier, or other Dowels - Do I need to bother?

Pistons
-- Remove Rings? Bearings?
-- Send Piston Assembly without top cap and bearings?
Leave the heater core hose (barb) filling alone unless it was leaking or damaged. No reason to remove it and risk damaging the threaded hole in the manifold.

Removing the rings is ok, just be carefull not to score the pistons when removing the rings.

Keep the rod caps bolted onto their respective rods. You can remove the bearings if you want. (not that big of a deal either way). Just try to keep track of where they went in case you need to match up a spec problem when the machine shop checks it all out.

Also I would keep track of piston/Rod #s. A yellow paint marker works good for this. But you could also probably get away with a shapie or some other good marking. You just should keep the pistons matched with the bore and the rods matched with the crank if possible.

Quote:
Crank
-- Remove Timing Sprocket
-- Anything else before sending to shop?
Timing sprocket should not matter. They slide on/off easily. Keep the old crank sprocket. I think you can use it to help line up your new timing set and the oil pump when putting it back together.

Quote:
Shooting to have it at the shop for Tuesday.
What do I need to get them to check for and in what order?
If they are any good, they should know what to do with it. You just need to make sure they confirm that your bores and pistons are within spec, or if you need an over-bore. And if your crank and rods are ok, or if you need the crank ground and under-sized bearings for your rebuild.

...
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