Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

[sdowney717]

I think they are not too expensive so worth the peace of mind to get new head bolts. Rock Auto sells Felpro bolts and they were good price.
I also wonder about later on having a bolt break down the road.
There is no visible defect on my old TTY head bolts.

Somewhere on this site mention was made about Saturn dealers not stocking rings and when reringing, GM mechanics did not rehone and it was in the same discussion about reusing head bolts, but I cant find it yet. Should have linked it.

[jasenpeters]

Guys, don't worry, I have new head bolts, already.
Still reading cboss, and checking out hoists, stands, etc.

As a test, is it worth it to pull out one of the pistons and check for any general issues, like cboss? (I'm aware each piston may have it's own problem signature)
Doing that will get me prepped for doing the rest.

If so, is there a preferred piston? #4 maybe? Since it is the one that blew out the valve or maybe #1 because it's easier to get to with engine insitu?

Also, as far as order of events, am I correct in assuming that I should scotch bright the ridge first before removing the piston? And, how do I know if it's enough, the fingernail test? Would measuring the rim ridge with a bore caliper give me better information on when to quit scotch brighting?

I don't want to over do it, especially if the cylinder is in good condition and does not require any further boring. I do not want to under do it and cause ring damage later.

Thoughts?

[OldNuc]

Pull the power train out and remove transmission and clutch, mount on engine stand. Disassemble and bag and label all bolts - do not skip this step. Keep all brackets and bolts/nuts together in bags. Zip lock bags are good for this and get a box to put this in so a helpful child, your big feet, and the animals stay out of them. Pull all the pistons. Scour off the carbon top ridge with a new green scotch-brite pad, buy a pack from SAMs, soak with acetone to help it cut better. Once the carbon is off if you can catch a fingernail on a ridge the block needs bored. If you feel one but it does not quite catch then it still probably will need boring. The complete disassembly does not take real long and trying to divine the condition of the other like parts from a random sample is a waste of time. If oil level has always been maintained at he full mark and excursions to red line minimized the bores may be perfect. Actual measuring is required. Bore diameter 3.2280-3.2287, service limit 3.2297 No taper and no out of round for just a re-ring. It is possible to determine the original unworn bore diameter and any wear over 0.002" and rebore is the preferred option.

[sdowney717]

I had no ridge, in fact all the engines I have done recently have had no ridge due to oil quality improvements, I think so.
Oil today is so much better. Even non synthetic. I used to think buy only synthetic oil, but I have changed my mind on that.

I would do your repair leaving the engine in place.

Our oil level was always running low, wife would come home tell me the light came on again. Always on turns and stops, so it goes....

Frequently I would check the level and it barely reads on dipstick, or even not reading at all!

I always wondered if the oil burning slowed down when the oil level got real low. Less oil being flung around. It seemed to loose the first qt real quick.

[macbox]

Originally Posted by jasenpeters

1-10?
Well, if it's just replacing parts (responsibly) and paying great attention to detail putting it back together, I'm a definite 10.
In fact, I'm excited at the prospect.

But, if it turns out to be a mess of re-engineering, I'm defeated.
If y'all can direct me to the areas to test of likely hood of boring and other significant machining, at least I'll have a chance to wrap my head around what's in store for me.

Haha, yes, I understand, part of it is a budget and time equation, and while you are in with both feet in terms of interest, there are other things going on.
The best thing to do is find a good machine shop to have the block measured to check the bore geometry, but if you want to just replace parts - as the old saying goes, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

The thing I would be concerned about is the miles on the engine, and if you have the machine shop (the right machines shop, some of them are sketchy) measure the bores and they can advise you whether you are in spec or not.

Generally, the shop takes care of the block and crank, measures, and if everything is in spec, drills oil drainback holes in the pistons, hones cylinders, and gives you the parts back. Then you install new rings and main bearings, oil pump, and put everything back together facing the right direction and in the right sequence. That is the general process of things. If you just want to do a re-ring without checking the bores, that is up to you, less money spent but less certainty about what is going on with the engine.

[jasenpeters]

Ok, any advice on an engine hoist?
I'm willing to buy.

Locally, Austin, TX, (if they have it) I've got:
Pep Bys
AutoZon
AdvAuto
O'ReilAuto
HarborFright!
Other?

I need some advice on Lift capacity and Reach, or other minimums
for the '96 SC2 DOHC Man.

Prices look at just under $200, with coupon (if I can find one) maybe less.

Also, engine stand and what is that thing I"m going to measure the bore with?
Bore Caliper? Telescoping Caliper? What sensitivity?

[OldNuc]

As to measurements, take it to a good shop as a decent bore gauge is going to cost about 100.00 and takes a given amount of skill to make it work. The specs are 0.xxxx and that is tough to read accurately without practice, same with crank. A shop will clean and measure the block for about $50.00 which is money well spent.

This HF hoist or any equivalent works as well as this stand. Check craigslist as these get sold right often.
Stands
http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb...and-69886.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb...and-69520.html

Hoist
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-c...ane-69514.html

Load leveler
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-Ton-C...ler-60659.html This is more than you need but it is easier to operate.

If you pull from above you have to raise the right end of the engine-trans and lower the left end until it all will come straight up and out. The ehunter thread has the detailed how-to on this as what to disconnect and how. If you have not seen it post back and I will link it for you.

Check craigslist.

[macbox]

I found my hoist for $100 and engine stand for $50 on craigslist, some geographical areas are better than others for this. The load leveler I had to pick up from HF.

[anmasher]

^^ I'll second that. If you are not intimately familiar with measuring instruments like that then it is impossible to get accurate enough measurements. Heck even temperature comes into play as I learned when blueprinting an engine this past winter. Between the 20F ambient temperature, the heat from the salamander, and the heat from my hands going into the micrometer I couldn't get repeatable measurements on a crank if my life depended on it. That leaves you with either bringing everything up to a decent temperature or checking the mike against a reference periodically and doing some math to keep everything in line. Moral of the story is to let a shop do it, just make sure they are a competent one.

[jasenpeters]

Ok all,

Just to let you know that I haven't fallen off the face of the earth...

I took out the drive-axles today, both left and right.

Things I noted on the way:
1) You DO NOT have to remove or loosen the strut bolts.
Just the control arm and the tie rod end castle nuts to the ball joints.

2) The tie rod ends came out with a simple ball joint puller.
DO NOT USE A FORK, it will damage the ball joint boots.

3) To remove the tenacious control arm ball joint to knuckle:
First, I tapped the knuckle with a small mallet where the ball joint
went through, just to loosen things up.
Hit the knuckle only! DO NOT hit the ball joint boot.
Then, I used a pry-bar as indicated in the various manuals and posts.
While adding pressure with one hand and holding it steady, I hit the
pry bar end with a 5-lb mallet.
After 3-4 good whacks, it popped out as promised.
The only trick to get the ball joint bolt out of the knuckle was to have
someone (heavier than 170-lbs) slowly step on the pry bar to lower the
control arm low enough to get the bolt to clear. Just swing the knuckle
out of the way, toward the front of the car.

4) The drive-axles came out easily. Both outer ends slipped out of each
wheel hub easily with a gentle tap of a rubber hammer.
The right side inner end, use a piece of wood against the inner end and
tap the wood with a hammer to push the drive-axle out and away from
the transmission housing.
The left side inner end, drain the transaxle fluid first, then use a small pry
bar or similar to push the inner end out and away from the transmission
housing.

Afterwards, I put a bolt and washers through the hub where the drive axle went through, re-attached the control arm and tie rod end to the knuckle and put the wheels back on. I did this in preparation to move the car a few feet away to the back yard behind the fence. (to avoid HOA complaints)

But first, I must finish removing the engine compartment components and prep the engine for the hoist.

I'll keep you posted. I may be slow but I'm gonna get there.
So don't give up on me!

Thanks for any advice.

[caveeagle]

Good going!

[jasenpeters]

Thanks.

Finished removing all wiring, hoses, and accessories from the engine/tran.

Now ready to research and plan my strategy to get at the lower engine and tranny mount bolts and then the upper tranny mount.

Then, I guess I'm ready to hoist 'er out.

[jasenpeters]

Ok everyone,

The engine is out!

I found a used Pittsburg (from HF) 2 ton hoist, stand, and leveler for $200.
Let me know if you think that was a bad deal.

Anyway, I got it out.

NOTES:
DO remove the passenger side lower engine mount bracket.
It's hard to get the engine out even when tilted.
Same goes for the lower transmission mount bracket. Get 'er out.
It will be easier to maneuver it out of the compartment.

Here are some pix:

Straps are on and sizing things up...
StrapsOn.jpg

On its way out...featuring Shop Girl!
Here it comes - feat. Shop Girl.jpg

The Beast is conquered!
The Beast is Conquered.jpg

Shop Girl tames the Beast
Shop Girl.jpg

A clean Head longing for a nice Engine Block.
Clean Head Longing for its Engine Block.jpg

Now what?

Any suggestions on what to take off and the order?
I just want to be thorough, I have my zip-locks ready!


As always, thanks for any guidance.

PS: CaveEagle, do you recognize that helmet?

[OldNuc]

Crank pulley, timing cover, timing chain, head. Do what ever you want with manifolds. If doing a complete rebuild or head rebuild take of the manifolds so they can be cleaned. Place crank key way at 3:00 before removing timing chain & head or you get to bend valves.

Head replacement and chain remove-replace
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=168496

That was not a bad price for a good hoist and leveler.

[jasenpeters]

All that has already been removed when I started, because this originally was a valve job.

Attached currently is, the transaxle, waterpump, oil pan, oil sensor, etc.

I'll just keep stripping it down, bagging and labeling as I go.

When I get to the pistons/crank/bearings, do I leave that in for the shop, or can I take all that out as well?

[OldNuc]

Transmission and then pan. After that have fun with the rest of it.

[jasenpeters]

Transmission is off.

Notes:
Remove Engine to Transaxle bracket
Remove Flywheel Access Plate
Transmission Bell housing to engine surface has two metal dowels
that guide the housing and engine surfaces together when bolting.
The front dowel was very tight, I had to do some prying, but I would
advise to take time to not damage the surface, if you can avoid it.
I had to wrestle a bit with getting the engine to release the splined
transmission shaft.

Clutch (engine side)
Clutch.JPG

Inside Bell Housing (tranny side)
Clutch_BellHousing.JPG

Any suggestions on mounting the engine to the stand?
I've never done this before.

Clutch plate and flywheel next: Anything to watch out for?

Thanks

[OldNuc]

Use the 4 transmission mounting points. The threads are 12mm X 1.75, you can buy bolts that are long enough at most large hardware stores but they are prohibitively expensive. You need 4 nuts and washers and a length of metric all thread, the all thread you will most likely have to order. !meter of class 8.8 will provide plenty of material, http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-rods/=t6kyll . You might be able to find bolts that will work if you have thin enough arms on the engine stand. How you do this depends on how the engine stand is built.

[jasenpeters]

How do I remove the rear seal retainer, pry it off?

I don't want to be to rough with this stuff.

[OldNuc]

Take the pan off and slide it off of the crank after removing the rest of the bolts. The pan bolts to the carrier. There is an RTV seal between the carrier and block as well.

all shown in these photos.
DOHC (1995)
https://picasaweb.google.com/1159762...L6UoammvrKEsAE