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Old 06-05-2014, 03:31 PM   #21
jasenpeters
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Green well used scotch brite and acetone. Once you get the chunks off this will work well.
OldNuc,

I'm about to order parts from Rock Auto, do you recommend replacing the head bolts? No apparent damage @ 220,000 miles.

...
Re-Animated: 2015-08-18, 220,497 + 6000 Miles
1996 SC2 DOHC, Manual, 220k, 36mpg Hwy

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Old 06-05-2014, 04:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Yes on replacing the head bolts.

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Old 06-06-2014, 06:56 AM   #23
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

If it were me I'd take the bit of extra time and pull the pistons to clean them and then drill oil return oils and new rings.

Highmile
'95 SL1 545k and counting

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Old 06-06-2014, 07:58 AM   #24
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

If you pull the pistons then you are into honing the cylinders and replacing the rings.

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Old 06-06-2014, 08:03 AM   #25
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highmile View Post
If it were me I'd take the bit of extra time and pull the pistons to clean them and then drill oil return oils and new rings.

Highmile
'95 SL1 545k and counting
Once again.... The "while your in there" questions pop up.

if your doing rings? why not hone it?

..Why not new bearings??

...New timing set???

....why not new oil pump????

....why not new .........

This can get very frustrating. Where do you draw the line? Not everybody can (or should) do a full rebuild whenever a water pump fails.


having said, al this... I would have a hard time not doing rings/bearings at this point.

...
Mark
'05 Vue, '02SL1, '01SC2a, '01SC2b, '99SL1 :::::> '04 SVT Cobra, '67 Mustang Vert.

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Old 06-20-2014, 03:18 AM   #26
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Ok all,

I cleaned the top of engine and piston tops only.
P6198656.jpg
P6198657.jpg

---------------------------------------------------
I'm ready to put the head back on.

Now I appreciate all the advice and I'm interested in doing a complete engine "overhaul", if that's what it means to replace rings and bearings, hone and mod the pistons for less oil burning (and whatever else y'all recommend).

But..... I need to get this thing going and put that off for now.
However, I suspect I have a rear main seal leaking and I do intend to get it replaced this year.

The question is: Is it possible to do the "overhaul" without having to separate the head from the engine again?

What I imagine doing is renting/buying an engine lift, separate the engine from the transmission (manual), lift, re-position, and then get at the rear seal, drop the oil pan, get at the crank, bearings, piston rings and honing.
Except for the rear seal, I wonder if this can be done without pulling the engine?

Also, since at this point I am replacing the timing set, is this a good time to do the front main seal now or save it for when I do the overhaul?

I'm trying to do as much as I can now and come back later to do the crank related overhaul.

Thanks in Advance.

...
Re-Animated: 2015-08-18, 220,497 + 6000 Miles
1996 SC2 DOHC, Manual, 220k, 36mpg Hwy

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Old 06-20-2014, 06:56 AM   #27
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

You dont need a hoist if you have some guys to lift out the block, my brother and his son did it.
You can pull the pistons but they only come out the top.

Was it burning oil?
Pulling the pistons to drill the holes and clean the pistons-clean the rings goes a long way preventing oil burning.
I have over 200 miles on my repair and still oil is at full mark.

If were me, I would drop pan pull pistons, do that and just put it back together as is. Keep all the parts in the original placement.

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Old 06-20-2014, 03:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Ok folks,

I'm really insecure and need some reasonable affirmation as to what direction to go. I hate to belabor what may seem easy to some folks, but just remember when you were here the first time.

Since the only way to remove the pistons is to push them up from the bottom out toward the head. I don't want to redo this head again. So, I'm willing to consider doing it now, however....

If that is the case, can I do any piston work without removing the engine?
(This is so I can rent the hoist for one day to do the rear seal, perhaps)

If I do piston work (rings, drill oil holes, honing), can I replace the rings and crank bearings without worrying about re-boring or machining or dithering with the cam shafts?
Of course, this would be under the condition that there is no unusual wear or damage to parts in question. Just remember the head had a "valve" job which included replacing damaged valves and I think related seals. But the cams and interconnecting parts were not serviced.

I'm very confident at turning wrenches and replacing parts, keeping up with order and positions of parts, but re-engineering or machining, I simply do not have the will to take on. (Except for drilling the oil holes in the piston head)

Thank you for your thoughts and advice.

...
Re-Animated: 2015-08-18, 220,497 + 6000 Miles
1996 SC2 DOHC, Manual, 220k, 36mpg Hwy

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Old 06-20-2014, 04:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Why don;t you rent the hoist and pull the engine and then take he hoist back. Now take care of all the block work while it is hanging on the engine stand. Get your engine properly rebuilt and assembled and then go get the hoist to put it back into the car. Yes you can do all kinds of things with the block in the frame buy why? You will do much better work if you build engine on an engine stand. Craigslist or Harbor Freight finds lots of hoists and engine stands for cheap. Looking at the time frame of this thread you are not in a time crunch so do not cut corners.

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Old 06-20-2014, 09:23 PM   #30
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

You can push the pistons out with engine in car.
I did it on our 1995 sl2

The only thing can't be done is rear main seal. But if it is not leaking, then dont worry about it.

Quote:
If I do piston work (rings, drill oil holes, honing), can I replace the rings and crank bearings without worrying about re-boring or machining or dithering with the cam shafts?
yes, certainly!

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Old 06-20-2014, 10:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

+1 OldNuc. You'll spend all this time and money doing the head and in a few months it will probably start gulping oil and you'll be doing it again.

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Old 06-21-2014, 12:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

It is much easier to do the job with the engine out of the car, and you are at 220K, which is significant. This is the 1-10 decision making tool that should bring some clarity: Where are you on a scale of 1 to 10 on wanting to do the complete job? If less than 5, are you willing to take the chance on the engine leaking oil or the rings having severe blow-by?, or are you a 7 and want to do this only once. Also consider if you will be keeping this car and/or taking long trips with it in the future.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 06-21-2014, 01:32 AM   #33
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Like I said, I'm ok turning wrenches, etc.

Also, this satty was running fine, good gas mileage, new clutch, rebuilt a/c.
Only thing was the oil consumption. The reason why I suspect that the rear seal my be a contributor (along with the rings) is the moist, yet not dripping, oil stain on the bottom of the engine to transaxle reinforcement plate.

It's just the rabbit hole of the unknown.

Based on Richpin, DoSumpthin, and others videos, I am very confident on
doing the rings, honing and bearings (oh my!). And of course, the rear main seal. Having to get the hoist and stand is what it is, that's ok.
I'll even throw in a new oil pump, if that helps.

1-10?
Well, if it's just replacing parts (responsibly) and paying great attention to detail putting it back together, I'm a definite 10.
In fact, I'm excited at the prospect.

But, if it turns out to be a mess of re-engineering, I'm defeated.
If y'all can direct me to the areas to test of likely hood of boring and other significant machining, at least I'll have a chance to wrap my head around what's in store for me.

But at the very minimum, I know I have to open things up and take a closer look. So hold on to your panties....here we go!

I'll read the cboss post and get back to you for any details.
Mine is a 1996 SC2 DOHC ManTran.

Again, any comments and encouragement are appreciated!

...
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Old 06-21-2014, 07:13 AM   #34
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

No boring of cylinders, nothing special you cant do yourself here.

Be very very careful with the hone, use the fine grit such as 320 and why not even just manually scotch bright pad the cylinders?

I think If I was to hone, I would put the scotch bright pads on my 3 stone hone.

My recent repair, I just cleaned up the original high quality Saturn rings, cleaned pistons and grooves, drilled 6 holes, 3 on each side and reinstalled them. I have not used any oil at 270 miles now. I also did not touch the cylinders.

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Old 06-21-2014, 07:39 AM   #35
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

There is the correct, industry recognized procedure for rebuilding an engine and several thousand shortcuts that sometimes work fine as long as you have the personal hands on experience to know when the probability of success is high when deploying said shortcut. If you do not have this experience then do not take these shortcuts.

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Old 06-21-2014, 02:17 PM   #36
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
......My recent repair, I just cleaned up the original high quality Saturn rings, cleaned pistons and grooves, drilled 6 holes, 3 on each side and reinstalled them. I have not used any oil at 270 miles now. I also did not touch the cylinders.
It will be interesting to see your progress against one naysayer as you continually post any mileage updates along with oil useage................. Of course, every engine rebuild will have varying degrees of success or "YMMV".

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Old 06-21-2014, 02:37 PM   #37
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

yes, it is sometimes a matter of opinion,
wolfman says he never replaces saturn headbolts.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17050

Quote:
Originally posted by SaturnTech
Saturn headbolts are not reuseable. Check any manual in the world, they do in fact stretch when they are torqued. Sure you may have reused a set and it worked fine, but I have been working on Saturns exclusively since '99 and I have seen what happens when the bolts are reused. I have seen head gaskets that were just replaced leaking like hell becuase the bolts were stretched. It was not cars I had done, I always, ALWAYS replace head bolts when doing a head job, $30 is cheap insurance compared to redoing the job for nothing. When torqueing say an S-series cylinder head, the first 2 measurements are torque specs using a torque wrench...the bolts are then turned an additional 90 degrees. Why is there no torque spec for this measurement?? Because you are in fact stretching the bolts, not torqueing them. Everyone has their own wayof doing things, some work and some don't, but according to Saturn, who in fact trained me to work on their vehicles, the head bolts are torque to yeild and therefore not reuseable.
then wolfman
Quote:
Actually I have the SAME training as you in the "S" Cars, and just for the benefit of the doubt, called my co horts from when I worked at Saturn and asked them. All of them, without fail, reuse the old headbolts...and NO the parts Dept. DOES NOT stock them....sounds like perhaps your shop is padding ye ole bills abit perhaps?
And somewhere it came up on this same forum from years ago for warrantee rerings , Saturn did not hone, they just put in new rings.

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Old 06-21-2014, 02:57 PM   #38
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

found mention that GM says not to rehone on another site, but I did read it also on this site, but cant find it again yet.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...one-one-2.html

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Old 06-21-2014, 03:02 PM   #39
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

If you continue you will find one of the presently active techs who stated that he recycled them until one snapped off and now he always replaces them. That was part of a discussion between the 3 of us regarding replacing TTY fasteners. As very few people on here have the tools or the experience to extract a snapped off head bolt in a Saturn aluminum block is it worth the ~20.00? I really do not think so as an easy-out will not do the job.

Run this search in the google custom search: head bolts ssicarman Then check the poster's profile.

Last edited by OldNuc; 06-21-2014 at 03:08 PM..

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Old 06-21-2014, 03:10 PM   #40
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

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Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
found mention that GM says not to rehone on another site, but I did read it also on this site, but cant find it again yet.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...one-one-2.html
That references a 30 year old or older now vehicle, apples and oranges.

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