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Old 10-27-2013, 04:09 PM   #1
satdave
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Wrench 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Hi... I just bought a 2002 Vue which had a bad motor due to the timing chain oiler issue on early model 2.2 Ecotecs. I acquired a 2008 Ecotec crate engine, and installed it this week. Now that it's in, the new motor cranks over nicely but will not start. Hoping to find someone here who has done a similar motor swap, or has some insight as to what might be wrong.

Observations:

The fuel pump does not come on when the key is turned. The voltage at the gray wire of the fuel pump terminal, (which is the positive for the fuel pump) gives a reading of only 8.8 volts. When 12 volts is run to the pump directly from the battery with a separate wire, the fuel pump works just fine, and gets fuel up to the fuel rail and pressurizes nicely at the Schrader valve. I don't know if it's getting past the fuel injectors however. I haven't tried to manually put gasoline into the throttle body yet to see if it will light up. Not sure it has spark, because the plugs are buried beneath coil pack.

We used the brain from the 2002, as the new crate motor did not come with one.

There were some differences between the 2008 crate and original 2002 motor... for example:

The crankshaft position sensor had three pins on the new motor, and 2 pins on the old motor, so we used the old crankshaft position sensor. upon further inspection looking into the hole where the sensor goes, it looks as though the crankshaft has a different setup to feed information to this sensor. This one has me worried.

The new throttle body had a different connector, so we simply swapped out the old one and put it on the new motor.

Could either of these be the reason the car now does not start?

Any insights greatly appreciated ... It's been a week, and I'm pulling what's left of my hair out at this point

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Old 10-27-2013, 06:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Dave ... did you install a 2.4 engine?

I can't locate a reference to a 2.2 in service manual.

If it is a 2.4 the 2002 ECM isn't going to be compatible for fuel or ignition but ought to run the fuel pump at key on.

I'll track down a fuel pump diagram.

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Old 10-28-2013, 11:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
Dave ... did you install a 2.4 engine?

I can't locate a reference to a 2.2 in service manual.

If it is a 2.4 the 2002 ECM isn't going to be compatible for fuel or ignition but ought to run the fuel pump at key on.

I'll track down a fuel pump diagram.
Agreed that there is no listing for an 08 2.2 engine. Also if the CPS is different for the 08 and 02 engines, odds are the toner wheel are different too. (The toothed ring that works with the CPS.) I don't recall if the wheel is internals or external. If it's on the crank pulley/Balancer, you're in luck, if it's one piece with the crank like many newer engines, it will turn over but not start, just like the issue you're having. However it not switching on the pump, that's an interesting issue.

Will it run on starting fluid?

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Old 10-28-2013, 12:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
I'll track down a fuel pump diagram.
I've attached fuel pump diagram as a thumbnail.

According to service manual the 2.2 and 2.4 CKP circuits are different ... see thumbnail description for each engine.

The 2.2 reluctor wheel has 7 notches and 2.4 has 58 teeth ... see thumbnails for descriptive extracts.

I'll also attach thumbnail wiring diagrams for 2.2 and 2.4 and CKP circuits.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 02 Vue - 2.2 Fuel Pump Cntl.jpg (142.7 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg 2.2 CKP Details.jpg (153.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg 2.4 CKP Details.jpg (193.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 2.2 CKP Wiring.jpg (193.8 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg 2.4 CKP Wiring.jpg (186.6 KB, 16 views)

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Old 10-28-2013, 12:18 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Hi... thanks for the replies (and putting this in the correct forum, Far2).
It was advertised on Craigslist as a 2.2 Ecotec... the guy said he had bought three of them from a dealer in Arizona, and "put two of them in Saturn Vues" himself... one of them a 2002 like mine. He seemed to know exactly what he was talking about, pointing out all the various front end parts etc which I would need to remove to do the job. That said, I'm not sure of anything. Fortunately I took some close up pictures of the motor and all the numbers I could find on it before I installed it ... Would it help to post them? Here they are... I will try the starting fluid test... I was going to do it yesterday but the gentleman who helped me put in the motor said that it could damage something ???

Oops... looks like my phone cant upload the pictures to the forum. I will transfer them to my computer and upload them here when I get home. Thanks again... awesome forum!

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Old 10-28-2013, 01:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

These are illustrations from service manual ... first thumbnail is 2.2 and second is 2.4.

Upper timing chain cover and valve cover are significantly different.

Your photos will probably be better than either illustration.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2.2 Engine - Frnt View.jpg (109.4 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg 2.4 Engine - Frnt View.jpg (113.3 KB, 45 views)

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Thank you... it does look like a 2.2 to me from these shots. The manufacturing dates on the motor are definitely 2008 though.. I am at my computer for a moment and will try uploading the pictures I took of the numbers and dates on the motor..

any idea if my friend was right about harming the motor by pouring a few drops of gas into the throttle body (or started fluid)??? Ive done that sort of thing lots of times with carbureted engines, but I'm not savvy on all the newer motor do's and dont's - old school tinkerer here

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

This is the new motor ..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG1245-22.jpg (96.7 KB, 86 views)

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Old 10-28-2013, 03:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

And some shots of the numbers on it...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG12322.jpg (100.7 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG12311.jpg (207.0 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG12299.jpg (133.4 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG12277.jpg (112.0 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG12255.jpg (153.9 KB, 29 views)

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Old 10-28-2013, 04:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by satdave View Post
Thank you... it does look like a 2.2 to me from these shots. The manufacturing dates on the motor are definitely 2008 though.. I am at my computer for a moment and will try uploading the pictures I took of the numbers and dates on the motor..

any idea if my friend was right about harming the motor by pouring a few drops of gas into the throttle body (or started fluid)??? Ive done that sort of thing lots of times with carbureted engines, but I'm not savvy on all the newer motor do's and dont's - old school tinkerer here
It looks like a 2.2 - but if it had a three wire CKP I don't believe it will fire up until you track down an engine control module (ECM) compatible with the updated engine hardware (throttle body, CKP and who knows what else).

The 2.2 was still available for 2007 Vue but all years had same basic sensor/ignition/fuel injector wiring going back to 2002.

Does anyone know which vehicle was still getting the 2.2 in 2008? If we knew of a platform we could check electrical interconnects and perhaps find numbers for updated ECM.

BTW ... you could determine if auto throttle works by observing throttle body butterfly valve by pressing gas pedal with key ON. The valve should follow pedal movement.

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Old 10-28-2013, 06:59 PM   #11
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Dizzy Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Ahh, I didn't know the throttle body would be opened in direct proportion with the foot pedal without it running. Thank you for that. it has been a bit of a jigsaw puzzle putting it back together. too bad there isn't somewhere on the web where you can compare every change that then made to the motors from one year to the next so this would be a much simpler process. I believe the cobalt was one of the cars that still had the 2.2 in 2008. does this mean I would need to get a cobalt ECM? I could go to the dealer and ask I suppose, but we all know what kind of a run around I would get from them I think :-) Thx again for all the help.

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Old 10-28-2013, 08:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Quote:
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Ahh, I didn't know the throttle body would be opened in direct proportion with the foot pedal without it running. Thank you for that. it has been a bit of a jigsaw puzzle putting it back together. too bad there isn't somewhere on the web where you can compare every change that then made to the motors from one year to the next so this would be a much simpler process. I believe the cobalt was one of the cars that still had the 2.2 in 2008. does this mean I would need to get a cobalt ECM? I could go to the dealer and ask I suppose, but we all know what kind of a run around I would get from them I think :-) Thx again for all the help.
I glanced at 08 Cobalt 2.2 wiring data and the ECM wiring indicates 3-wire CKP and CMP sensors.

The Cobalt ECM also provides electronic throttle control (ETC) signals to the updated throttle body but I don't know if ECM is compatible with the APP (accelerator pedal position) sensor.

You could use an online parts provider and compare part numbers between model years if you don't want to mess with dealer. I often use Rockauto.com for research and parts.

Much of the ECM interconnect data is in the service manual ... I can email bits and pieces if interested ... left click on my screen name to send PM.

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Old 10-29-2013, 01:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Thanks very much for your help! I will go about trying to make this motor swap work, and will update this thread when I have found all the problems and have some insights which may help others doing a similar late motor / early motor swap . Thank you again

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Old 11-08-2013, 01:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

UPDATE:

Found the trouble with the fuel pump not coming on... my friend had placed the ground wire to the ECM in the wrong place (alternator) so the brain housing wasn't grounded. Oops! After fixing that, we now have fuel at the rail, but still no start. Thinking that darned crank sensor is the issue now... there seems to be a different signal sending lobe setup on the crank on this motor, so the old sensor isn't picking it up (??? theory anyway). I'd like to wire up the new 3 prong sensor into the wiring from the old 2 prong harness, and see if it picks up the signal... seems the 3 prong's extra wire is a 5v reference wire... the other 2 wires probably serve the same purpose as in the old 2 wire setup? Wondering how it will work with the new sensor, minus that 5v reference. Anyone know what the 5v reference is for?

Thoughts?

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Old 11-08-2013, 01:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Can I feed a 5v reference to the sensor from another part of the car?

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Old 11-08-2013, 03:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Confirmed.. the new motor crankshaft has a totally different CKP reluctor on the crankshaft... I'm out 3000 dollars unless there is a way to make the new crank sensor work with the Vue's 2002 ECM

Everything else works.. throttle body, fuel, etc.. I think this is the last domino. Jerry rigging ideas welcome

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Old 11-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by satdave View Post
Confirmed.. the new motor crankshaft has a totally different CKP reluctor on the crankshaft... I'm out 3000 dollars unless there is a way to make the new crank sensor work with the Vue's 2002 ECM

Everything else works.. throttle body, fuel, etc.. I think this is the last domino. Jerry rigging ideas welcome
I've attached diagrams ... Vue 2.2 has 7 tooth reluctor and Cobalt 2.2 has 58 tooth (but you know that).

The CKP's are different electrical designs with different connections to the Vue and Cobalt ECM's (see diagrams).

Someone - somewhere - has probably figured out how to adapt the newer 2.2 CKP to earlier vehicles - I'll let you know if I find something.

I can also pull up wiring for old and new ECM to see if anything is common between the two.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2.2 CKP Diff.jpg (147.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg 2.2 (Vue) CKP.jpg (163.0 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg 2.2 (Cobalt) CKP.jpg (80.2 KB, 16 views)

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Old 11-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #18
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Dizzy Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

far2grumpy... Finding a way to make that sensor work would be, to put it mildly, stellar!!!

My friend said to put the 2008 throttle body back on the motor(it's currently sporting the one from the 2002 motor), then find a 2008 Cobalt ECM and wiring harness, and it would all work. I'd sure prefer just making that sensor work with the 2002 ecm

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Old 11-08-2013, 07:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

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far2grumpy... Finding a way to make that sensor work would be, to put it mildly, stellar!!!

My friend said to put the 2008 throttle body back on the motor(it's currently sporting the one from the 2002 motor), then find a 2008 Cobalt ECM and wiring harness, and it would all work. I'd sure prefer just making that sensor work with the 2002 ecm
I've looked at several L61 forums - one mentioned adding external notch wheel and another spoke of changing crankshafts to make CKP work.

I guess I'm spoiled - I thought there'd be an add-on converter available.

It also appears the 08 2.2 engine has a camshaft position sensor which isn't on the 02-07 Vue version.

At this point it's looking like new ECM and harness might be less painful.

Please say the Vue has a manual transmission.

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Old 11-10-2013, 10:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 Vue 2.2 Engine Swap with 2008 2.2 Engine

I know practically nothing about this topic, but.... I've seen the reluctor converters for other applications (search for "LINGENFELTER TRG-002" ... it won't let me post the link); of course it won't work here though. Not sure if there are other similar products out there that you could use? Maybe call lingenfelter for a custom job? Kind of pricey though.

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