SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn Vue > Vue Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-13-2013, 05:10 PM   #1
mrniksmif
Junior Member
mrniksmif is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 13
Default Dead Vue

Hello. I've got an odd one for you all to wrap your heads around.

2003, 2.2L, manual Vue. It was driving fine, parked it, wouldn't start. I hooked up the OBD scanner and it said P0172 and P0141. So I'm running too rich and my 2nd O2 sensor is bad, I'll replace both the O2 sensors and put on the new catalytic converter that I've been procrastinating on.

Before starting this task I noticed that my dome lights didn't come on when I opened the door and my front map lights wouldn't turn on either. I can already tell that's going to be a problem

I put on a new manifold, cat, and both O2 sensors and optimistically ignored the dome light issue. The P0141 went away but the car still won't start, still has the P0172 code, and obviously none of this would fix the dome lights.

If the car won't start and the dome lights won't come on either, does that suggest that it's an ECM problem? The Vue doesn't have a mass air flow sensor because the ECM somehow takes care of that function and I'm guessing the ECM also tells the lights when to come on as well. That's why I'm questioning it.

Any thoughts from the masses?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mrniksmif's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mrniksmif reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mrniksmif is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 09-13-2013, 06:35 PM   #2
billysvue
Senior Member
billysvue will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: san diego
Posts: 1,224

2005 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Dead Vue

how much voltage is across your battery posts? how long was it parked?

...
'05 ,2.2L, FWD,5-speed VUE
188,000mi

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billysvue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billysvue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billysvue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 06:44 PM   #3
mrniksmif
Junior Member
mrniksmif is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 13
Default Re: Dead Vue

I did drain most of the battery after trying to start it about a dozen times. I'll have to charge it and check it. The battery is a Duralast Gold that's only about 2 years old. I'll still check it once it's charged.

My Saturn is a daily driver, it was only parked for a few hours while visiting my mother.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mrniksmif's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mrniksmif reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mrniksmif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 06:48 PM   #4
madisonhq
Junior Member
madisonhq is on a distinguished road
 
madisonhq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 30

2004 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Dead Vue

Yea i would deff check the batt first

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to madisonhq's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help madisonhq reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
madisonhq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 09:59 PM   #5
far2grumpy
Master Member
far2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to all
 
far2grumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 6,780
 

2005 VUE 3.5L
2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Dead Vue

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrniksmif View Post
Hello. I've got an odd one for you all to wrap your heads around.

2003, 2.2L, manual Vue. It was driving fine, parked it, wouldn't start. I hooked up the OBD scanner and it said P0172 and P0141. So I'm running too rich and my 2nd O2 sensor is bad, I'll replace both the O2 sensors and put on the new catalytic converter that I've been procrastinating on.

Before starting this task I noticed that my dome lights didn't come on when I opened the door and my front map lights wouldn't turn on either. I can already tell that's going to be a problem

I put on a new manifold, cat, and both O2 sensors and optimistically ignored the dome light issue. The P0141 went away but the car still won't start, still has the P0172 code, and obviously none of this would fix the dome lights.

If the car won't start and the dome lights won't come on either, does that suggest that it's an ECM problem? The Vue doesn't have a mass air flow sensor because the ECM somehow takes care of that function and I'm guessing the ECM also tells the lights when to come on as well. That's why I'm questioning it.

Any thoughts from the masses?
A good battery is essential.

I don't think those codes would prevent engine start (unless you have a huge vacuum leak).

A failing post-cat sensor could lead you to believe the cat-con has lost efficiency - I'd always change sensor first before replacing cat.

Can you hear fuel pump run for a couple of seconds when key's turned to ON (ECM runs the pump)?

The interior lights are powered by the BCM (ECM not involved) and there's a 10A INT LIGHT fuse in the center I/P fuse block (next to front pax left foot). If fuse is good it could be a clue that the BCM is headed south (failing).

Do you notice if SECURITY light is on when cranking? It should go out as soon as you turn key to START - if not, it could be a Passlock problem caused by BCM or Passlock module (ignition cylinder).

There are steps to teach the BCM to accept signal sent from ignition cylinder but are necessary only if SECURITY light is on steady or flashes after cranking.

...
"Good judgement comes from experience - and a lot of that comes from bad judgement." ... Will Rogers

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to far2grumpy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help far2grumpy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
far2grumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 10:27 PM   #6
mrniksmif
Junior Member
mrniksmif is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 13
Default Re: Dead Vue

I'm sure the battery is fine but will double check. I didn't see any obvious vacuum leaks. Checked all the fuses first. The pump was turning on as well. The next step will be to check the security light.

If it is a failing BCM, what is involved in correcting that? Can I just buy one and plug it in wherever it goes or does it need to be programed by the dealer?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mrniksmif's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mrniksmif reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mrniksmif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 12:28 PM   #7
far2grumpy
Master Member
far2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to all
 
far2grumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 6,780
 

2005 VUE 3.5L
2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Dead Vue

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrniksmif View Post
I'm sure the battery is fine but will double check. I didn't see any obvious vacuum leaks. Checked all the fuses first. The pump was turning on as well. The next step will be to check the security light.

If it is a failing BCM, what is involved in correcting that? Can I just buy one and plug it in wherever it goes or does it need to be programed by the dealer?
I've read that a dealer can install a new BCM and program to match your Vue - including present mileage - I've also read that new BCM comes with two new key fobs. The last I recall reading was cost was around $500 USD.

You can buy a used BCM but you won't generally know what mileage will pop up on your IPC (mileage is stored in BCM) and there will be other differences (security, keyless entry, etc).

You could call a local GM dealer to see if they will program a used BCM for you. If they can't there's a relatively simple 30 minute procedure to match a new (to you) BCM to your existing Passlock module.

...
"Good judgement comes from experience - and a lot of that comes from bad judgement." ... Will Rogers

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to far2grumpy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help far2grumpy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
far2grumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 03:30 PM   #8
mrniksmif
Junior Member
mrniksmif is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 13
Default Re: Dead Vue

Update. I charged up the battery. The security light isn't staying on, interior lights are still out, and trouble code is still telling me it's too rich.

I checked one dealer for a BCM. They quoted me $443 for the part, seems a little high, and $175 for install and programing. If this were the problem I'd just install the part myself and have them program it.


Does this still seem like a BCM problem?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mrniksmif's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mrniksmif reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mrniksmif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2013, 08:28 PM   #9
far2grumpy
Master Member
far2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to all
 
far2grumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 6,780
 

2005 VUE 3.5L
2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Dead Vue

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrniksmif View Post
Update. I charged up the battery. The security light isn't staying on, interior lights are still out, and trouble code is still telling me it's too rich.

I checked one dealer for a BCM. They quoted me $443 for the part, seems a little high, and $175 for install and programing. If this were the problem I'd just install the part myself and have them program it.


Does this still seem like a BCM problem?
Lack of lights could be BCM - if fuse is good.

Do you have a test light or voltmeter to make a few light related measurements?

How about a few engine questions:

Does engine spit or sputter during crank?

Do you note any movement from tach when cranking?

...
"Good judgement comes from experience - and a lot of that comes from bad judgement." ... Will Rogers

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to far2grumpy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help far2grumpy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
far2grumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 10:05 AM   #10
mrniksmif
Junior Member
mrniksmif is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 13
Default Re: Dead Vue

Update... After a couple weeks of poking, prodding, and wrenching on the Vue I decided to take it into the dealership for repairs. All signs seemed to point to the the BCM. In preparation for having the car towed, I started to clean out the Vue and noticed that my dome came on this time. WTH?

Next I tried to start the car and it fired right up. WTH? I kept my appointment with the dealership, drove it in for them to look at, and payed them $99 to tell me nothing was wrong with the car.

I still have no idea what happened but I did learn that the Vue has the ability to heal itself.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mrniksmif's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mrniksmif reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mrniksmif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2013, 11:58 AM   #11
far2grumpy
Master Member
far2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to allfar2grumpy is a name known to all
 
far2grumpy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 6,780
 

2005 VUE 3.5L
2007 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Dead Vue

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrniksmif View Post
I still have no idea what happened but I did learn that the Vue has the ability to heal itself.
Until you need it the most!!!

There is probably a loose connection somewhere and my preferred method to locate is have engine running while I start wiggling things - fuses, single wires, wiring harnesses, etc.

Your most likely candidates to "kill" the BCM are power and ground circuits ... and power is provided by the I/P fuse box (next to front pax left foot).

See the attached thumbnail - note the four BCM related fuses across the top of page. I would wiggle each of those in turn while monitoring engine - internal lights - whatever. (My prime suspect is BCM (IGN1) fuse or socket or associated wiring).

If something bad happens when wiggling a fuse - the cause is most likely on back side of the fuse block - which means you need to remove the panel from drivers side of center I/P console to access wiring harness and connectors.

Getting at this stuff is mostly intuitive but there are service manual instructions free for asking.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 03 BCM Power & Ground.jpg (179.2 KB, 1 views)

...
"Good judgement comes from experience - and a lot of that comes from bad judgement." ... Will Rogers

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to far2grumpy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help far2grumpy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
far2grumpy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2002 Vue AWD 3 Liter Auto - Dead, Dead, Dead ... HELP LinWinux Vue General 6 09-10-2013 02:20 PM
Dead SC2 :( fogdrive S-Series General 2 04-10-2012 11:07 PM
Help! everything went dead . . . redsput S-Series Tech 4 10-11-2006 06:51 PM
'94 SL2 A/C Dead TXTABBY S-Series Tech 0 05-03-2006 12:24 PM
Need Help Car Just Went Dead JOHN RETTMER S-Series Tech 3 04-02-2005 07:28 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:28 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.