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Old 09-05-2013, 03:23 PM   #1
hotrod205
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Question Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

I'm rebuilding my 254k SL2 DOHC engine, thanks to assuming the "life of car" timing chain meant that it would outlast the engine. It seems the tensioner failed or was at it's limit, so the slack in the chain wore out the gear teeth and it jumped time. So obviously I'm getting a rebuilt head and new timing set. I am going to pull the engine out and try to do it right. Drilling pistons, block/crank cleaned/honed/measured, etc.

I've done lots of reading here and I'm putting together a full list of what I need, what brand of parts, etc. so I don't get halfway done and realize I forgot to order so-and-so, or that I ordered crap parts.

I will post my current part list to critique later tonight, but I'll start with a list of "improvements" that I'm going to do while I have the engine/trans out...

2002 DOHC manual trans, 254k miles
1) drill drain holes in piston ring grooves
2) clean out plugged exhaust manifold AIR pump tubes
3) weld diff pin
4) 5th gear swap, or maybe swap entire SOHC trans. depending on condition of what is in pick-a-part.

Can anyone think of any other mods I can/should do while the engine/trans is out?

At this mileage would I be better off getting new pistons/rods, or only replace if damaged?

EDIT: Might help to know that it was running fine before the "crunch". Burned a quart every 400-500 miles, only code prior to failure was the AIR pump issue which had existed for a while. No idea what the compression was, can't check with bent valves...

Last edited by hotrod205; 09-05-2013 at 03:28 PM.. Reason: Add

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

All I can say is DO YOUR HOMEWORK on the machine shop you use. Find one with a good reputation from the guys on various performance car forums. I'm digging back into the engine after learning this the hard way. Good luck!

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Old 09-05-2013, 03:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Hard to say without details of your budget and how long you plan to drive the car after the rebuild, but I would consider:
1. New LUK clutch kit
2. New flywheel or at least resurface the one you have
3. Driveshafts
4. Intermediate bearing in the passenger driveshaft
5. Replace starter mounting bolts with studs and nuts

Others will surely chime in with engine recommendations.

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Old 09-05-2013, 08:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod205 View Post
I'm rebuilding my 254k SL2 DOHC engine, thanks to assuming the "life of car" timing chain meant that it would outlast the engine. It seems the tensioner failed or was at it's limit, so the slack in the chain wore out the gear teeth and it jumped time. So obviously I'm getting a rebuilt head and new timing set. I am going to pull the engine out and try to do it right. Drilling pistons, block/crank cleaned/honed/measured, etc.
Once you've found a reputable machine shop that is an AERA member, find the best head you can at the junkyard and have that one rebuilt. None of the current mass rebuilders are of a worthy quality.

Quote:
I will post my current part list to critique later tonight, but I'll start with a list of "improvements" that I'm going to do while I have the engine/trans out...

2002 DOHC manual trans, 254k miles
1) drill drain holes in piston ring grooves
2) clean out plugged exhaust manifold AIR pump tubes
3) weld diff pin
4) 5th gear swap, or maybe swap entire SOHC trans. depending on condition of what is in pick-a-part.

Can anyone think of any other mods I can/should do while the engine/trans is out?

At this mileage would I be better off getting new pistons/rods, or only replace if damaged?
I would save up the extra ~$200 and have the block bored to the first oversize and install new pistons. Honing and drilling oil drains might stop consumption, but at 250k+ it's a risk I wouldn't take. Machine shop could measure and make recommendations, but I would just plan on over-boring. Rods should be ok, but I'd send them to the machine shop to confirm. Check thrust bearing clearance on the old crank before sending it to the shop. If the crank thrust surface is worn down, you're maybe better off buying a "reman" crank as polishing/grinding + welding costs $$$.

I'd recommend getting the older LuK 04-115 clutch kit as it is supposedly a better clutch (stronger, I think).

Do the Hunt4Steve/cityhawk style double roll pin instead of welding the differential. Optionally also install a LSD while you're at it.

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Old 09-05-2013, 08:09 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod205 View Post
I've done lots of reading here and I'm putting together a full list of what I need, what brand of parts, etc. so I don't get halfway done and realize I forgot to order so-and-so, or that I ordered crap parts.
Here's my list, it is for a 1995 engine though and yours has a bunch of TTY fasteners. Ignore the Hastings rings and J&C head. Those are both lower quality parts than you want.

The bearings, rings, pistons, etc. can (and should) be ordered by the machine shop. They'll make sure they are the correct size and they get better prices than you will.

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Old 09-05-2013, 11:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Thanks, this is a great start! anmasher I'm looking at a similar budget/list. You did even more that I'm planning though. I changed the clutch around 180k so I'm planning on reusing the clutch/flywheel. Not rebuilding the alternator, and I replaced the starter around 200k so I AGREE TOTALLY on the starter studs, that was a PITA!

Since I'm going to be spending about $1000 on it I plan on driving it for several years at least. I work at home now so I'm putting less than 10k on my driver, and have other vehicles so it is not critical that it never have another issue. But at the same time I don't want to cut a $100 corner that will ruin the engine in a year or less.

Question on the head... why is a J&C head not good for this? Have seen numerous posts here saying they are the only recommended source for Saturn heads. Has their quality slipped lately?

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Old 09-05-2013, 11:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Adding the halfshaft(s) to the list. Forgot about one having a busted outer boot, decided to drive it until it broke. That was 3-4 years/40-50k miles ago, still not popping or broke! Hence I had forgotten about it completely.

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Old 09-05-2013, 11:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod205 View Post
Thanks, this is a great start! anmasher I'm looking at a similar budget/list. You did even more that I'm planning though. I changed the clutch around 180k so I'm planning on reusing the clutch/flywheel. Not rebuilding the alternator, and I replaced the starter around 200k so I AGREE TOTALLY on the starter studs, that was a PITA!
Wise choice on the alternator, I ended up with more problems (and cost!) than just buying a new one. It's easy enough to change so no reason to even worry about it during rebuild.

Quote:
Question on the head... why is a J&C head not good for this? Have seen numerous posts here saying they are the only recommended source for Saturn heads. Has their quality slipped lately?
I don't think quality has slipped, I think it wasn't there to begin with. Ehunter got a dud, low compression on cylinder #1, plus leaking stem seals IIRC.

I also have one in my car - haven't done enough testing to say whether I'm happy or not, but I don't like what I've seen so far. Hopefully by the end of the weekend I can finish testing it properly.

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Old 09-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

http://www.ipwparts.com/linecardpart.asp?partnumber=DNJ EK312M used this kit on mine and it was the cheapest price I found on the net for this kit need to add the ek312m into the browser

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Old 09-08-2013, 07:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

I can't get that kit to display, but the link says DNJ... DNJ is more or less junk from China. In terms of kits, the only thing I'd consider is a top-end gasket set. Fel-Pro or Victor Reinz. You probably won't find high quality bearings, rings, pistons, etc. in a kit.

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:30 AM   #11
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Thanks for the DNJ info. Rockauto is loaded with DNJ stuff, but I haven't used any so wasn't sure.

Current status: still planning and prepping to pull the engine.

I got a few small parts removed Friday then realized that I was about to have a huge mess on my hands if I didn't stop and take some time to clean up my garage and workbench area. I haven't had a clean workbench in years, and even had a pile of stuff in front of it now! So I spent a few hours putting up/throwing out stuff and now have a cleaned off work area and space around the car for all the removed parts that are about to be put on/around it.

Plus I had my spare driver car throw a code Saturday and it already needed an oil change. So between cleaning the garage and troubleshooting the spare, that took most of Sunday. I'm trying to have it ready to pull the engine by next Sunday.

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Old 09-09-2013, 10:21 AM   #12
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

If space is an issue, I was as to keep all parts inside the car during the rebuild. Put some plastic down in the car first.

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

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If space is an issue, I was as to keep all parts inside the car during the rebuild. Put some plastic down in the car first.
Yep, I plan on doing that also just to try to keep it all together and leave floor space for the engine work. Most of the mess was stuff that needed to be put up on nearby shelves or random crap I had piled on/around my workbench.

When I did the clutch in-car I had all that stuff out and had pieces everywhere. I'm trying to keep it more organized this time. It is amazing how much stuff you can take out from under that hood!

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Old 09-09-2013, 11:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

I am not the first or the last to say this. You cannot take too many picture or label too much. Also every part needs its own labeled bag of bolts. It is time consuming and boring but invaluable when it is time to reassemble. I made a 60 or 70 page word document of every step I took during disassembly with pictures and notes.

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Old 09-09-2013, 01:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

Just went through this with my 225k SW2...

1. Estimate expenses, then double that figure. Some of my unforeseen expenses were for broken hardware, rust repair, snapped head bolt extraction, motor mounts. I was lucky that my exhaust system survived, usually exhaust crumbles when I disturb it.

2. I cleaned my subframe, did some minor patching, and painted with truck bed liner. I also cleaned and painted brackets, sway bar, control arms, inner wheel wells, parts of the engine bay, etc. for renewed longevity.

3. I went out the bottom, onto a pallet with casters on it. Subframe, engine, suspension, transmission, etc. Was pretty easy, as long as you can raise the front of the car high enough. Once done I was able to reassemble my "refurbished powertrain" comfortably on the pallet, roll it under, and lower the car.

4. I started my rebuild before doing a thorough rust inspection. Had I not been so invested by the time I found the horrific rust I would have abandoned the project. Rust repair is not fun.

5. I too went with a rebuilt head from ebay. I mine from J&C Enterprises in West Virginia. Username race114183. Some people have reported less than desirable product from a Florida ebay seller.

6. THREADS! My best friend was a wire brush and stainless steel bowl to clean my nuts and bolts with carb cleaner. I also took some old bolts and cut slits in them for makeshift "thread chasers" to clean things out. Also a bottle of copper ant seize and some locktite. This will make life MUCH easier.

I just finished the mechanicals on mine, just wrapping up my rocker panel rust repair and I'm back on the road... 1.5 years later. Hopefully yours goes quicker.

I had a chipped valve, perhaps from timing failure.

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Old 09-09-2013, 09:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

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3. I went out the bottom, onto a pallet with casters on it. Subframe, engine, suspension, transmission, etc. Was pretty easy, as long as you can raise the front of the car high enough. Once done I was able to reassemble my "refurbished powertrain" comfortably on the pallet, roll it under, and lower the car.
I had thought about this, but couldn't find much discussion of going under. Most of the comments say it is easier to go out the top. I would think that it would be fairly easy to jack the front up high with the engine/subframe out, not much weight left in it. I would prefer to go under so I will have to take a closer look at dropping the subframe.

Quote:
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4. I started my rebuild before doing a thorough rust inspection. Had I not been so invested by the time I found the horrific rust I would have abandoned the project. Rust repair is not fun.
Not a problem for me, no rust here in the south. I personally know the original owner and the car has never been north of Tennessee. Have crawled all over/under/in it and not a speck of rust anywhere, even the wiper arms.

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5. I too went with a rebuilt head from ebay. I mine from J&C Enterprises in West Virginia. Username race114183. Some people have reported less than desirable product from a Florida ebay seller.
I had planned on a J&C head after reading numerous other posts (including your rebuild thread), but then the one above says they aren't good either. If anyone else has recent experience with J&C please chime in. I'm not looking for factory perfect, I just want a decent driver.

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Old 09-09-2013, 10:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

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I had planned on a J&C head after reading numerous other posts (including your rebuild thread), but then the one above says they aren't good either. If anyone else has recent experience with J&C please chime in. I'm not looking for factory perfect, I just want a decent driver.
Maybe send a message to OldNuc as he seems to be tracking these things. I'll go confirm my compression results...
Getting a junkyard head and having it re-machined isn't much more than J&C charges for a head.

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Old 09-09-2013, 10:44 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

OK, compression results on mine appear to be an inaccurate gauge, not the head's fault.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

I am slowly removing bits preparing for engine removal. Before long it will be ready to pull out. I'm still debating the over/under option.

I've seen several sets of instructions for dropping the subframe, but with the intent of subframe replacement, not dropping the engine. I should be able to put together a dolly to sit the cradle on, then jack/lift the body up and roll the engine/cradle out. Has anyone done an engine removal both ways?

Another question: if going out the top, why not separate the engine & trans in the car and pull the engine out separately? I have already done the in-car through the wheel well clutch replacement, so I know it isn't that hard to get the transmission off in the car.

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Old 09-11-2013, 09:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rebuilding 254k DOHC Engine - Planning questions

If you can support the transmission, there's no reason you couldn't just pull the engine out alone, though with an engine-leveler, I've had my engine/tranny in and out half a dozen times now - once you disconnect the mounts it takes literally a minute and a half to maneuver around. It helps to have a hand underneath, but not necessary. Just be SURE to zip-tie the wiring harness and shifter cables to the side or firewall.

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