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Old 07-17-2013, 12:46 PM   #1
brokendown
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Default sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Had something wierd happen today that scared me into parking the saturn (my only car) til I figure out what might have happened. Hoping for advice ASAP because i'm 250 miles out of town and don't even have my normal tool access.

Brakes in general have been normal since my brake job 10,000 miles ago last year posted here (pads/discs/calipers)- except for the CHUGGA-CHUGGA-CHUGGA "warped" rotors issue that happened within 3000 miles and is loud and annoying at light braking but doesn't affect the braking force or stoppability so haven't re-messed with any of it.


Weather's been hot like 95 degrees. Went on some errands, had to pick up a bunch of stuff. Put on the parking brake - apparently I think I drove off with the parking brake still moderately engaged like 60% maybe, for about 12-15 miles, at highway speeds 70mph without realizing it. >_< Because the stuff I had strewn between the seats made me not realize the parking brake handle was still up.

Brakes seemed fine and normal all the way - didnt have so much parking brake on that the load made me noticibly slow down much either.

Dropped by home, removed junk from car, realized parking brake was up. D'OH! Got back in car, put foot on brake pedal... WTF?? Pedal felt like the clutch... far less resistance, sunk alot deeper than normal. Instant night and day change (no gradual degradation, was the moment I took the parking brake off) - slowly drove in parking lot to see whats up, brake felt... spongy, went further than normal, but when pushed further still seemed to have as much brake force as before. But pedal moved a good 70% of the way with nearly no braking then suddenly got alot more grabby.

Did a few more test stops, seemed to improve some, so went up to 25-30mph on the street afterwards. First braking ACK, pedal sunk nearly to the floor, almost no brake force at all, slight dodge to the left. Pulled immediately into next drive way and again did some 5mph stops, remained going really deep but was like each brake step was different... got better then worse then better again...

Slowly limped to where I could park it. After letting it cool 10-15 minutes the brake seemed alot better but didn't want to drive it. Looked under the car, no sign of leaking anything that's noticible. Checked under hood - brake fluid level seems normal and unchanged.


Any ideas what the problem could have been? Could the parking brake engaged have caused all this and if so how? Could it have boiled brake fluid or something turning it to gas causing the spongy pedal, or what else could it be? I can't see how air could get into the system (bled it a year ago with no trace of bubbles and no sponge pedal ever until today) and the only wierd thing just before was my accidentally leaving the parking brake engaged on the highway... (which admittedly could have damaged or overheated something/any suggestions on what to check for later are welcome)

I don't think I can do much more than take wheels off where I am without my normal tools btw...

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Old 07-17-2013, 12:57 PM   #2
dbsanfte
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

You mention a recent brake job. Look at the front brake hoses and check for bulging, the calipers may have been rotated and the brake hoses twisted and made to rub on the tires. Verify this immediately before the hose fails.

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Old 07-17-2013, 01:38 PM   #3
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Probably a problem introduced through wear and heat generation.

Could have worn the rear drums down a lot. Pull handbrake up and down 10 times to tighten them up.

Could be some water in brake fluid that's heated up. Let system cool down over a few hours and re-check.


First thing I'd do is remove wheels and check for any unusual wear.

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Old 07-17-2013, 01:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

You don't mention whether you have rear discs or drums. If you have drums, sounds like you wore a bunch off the linings and they are now way out of adjustment. In Theory, the automatic adjusters Should take up that slack eventually but in practice they work very poorly if at all.

I'd pull the drums to check there's sufficient lining left and if there is, manually adjust the shoes. If there is not, then you'll need to replace the shoes. While they're off I'd also inspect the drums; they too may now be worn out of spec.

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Old 07-17-2013, 02:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

If you are certain the parking brake was engaged and you drove the car this way for whatever mileage, you basically boiled the brake fluid, period. It won't matter whether the rears are drums or discs - try imagining pressing the brake pedal while driving. You are effectively using all four brakes and never releasing the brake pedal simply means heating up all the brakes and everything related to brakes; shoes, pads, linkages, star wheels, pistons, calipers, drums, and brake fluid. Continuously applying braking simply heats up everything including brake fluid to their breaking point. Pads are glued to their steel backing plates. Brake shoes are glued to their backing plates. Brake drums or rotors turn blue from over heating and may warp. Since we use brakes only when needed and hardly race cars to use brakes to the point of turning them red hot as seen in night time endurance racing, our brakes won't melt the bonding used to glue brakes to backing plates. We also don't use extremely high temperature silicone brake fluid that won't suffer from racing temperatures. We use (more than adequate) DOT-3 brake fluid in 99% of every day braking situations that won't boil it. Applying brakes constantly simply over heats a brake system and breaks down brake fluid requiring a serious inspection of the brake system. At the least, brake fluid will need to be either flushed out completely or bled to rid boiled fluid from the system and replaced with fresh. Away from home? Either buy the wrench that fits the bleed screws and bleed the system with two people or pay a shop to flush/bleed the system and refill with new DOT-3.

If you have a jack, put a wheel up and bleed one brake at a time. If you can't figure out how to put a car up on a curb (no jack) to reach under and open a bleed screw without a jack, you're not thinking (outside the box) at all...............

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Old 07-18-2013, 08:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Opted to wait 24 hours for responses to build up since I wasn't rushing anywhere and could just let it park for the moment. : P

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbsanfte View Post
You mention a recent brake job. Look at the front brake hoses and check for bulging, the calipers may have been rotated and the brake hoses twisted and made to rub on the tires. Verify this immediately before the hose fails.
Well I was the one that did the job and I was careful to route the lines appropriately at the time. :) I went over and pulled the front wheels off though anyways just to check - brake hoses are routed correctly, no bulges or sign/trace of anything being wrong - no leaks, damaged rotors, or any sign of things in the front "looking" off that I can recognize. (for that matter i'm not sure why my 'warped' rotor CHUGGA-CHUGGA-CHUGGA is so severe, I thought i'd see a part of the disc which looked visibly different but both discs look clean shiny and metal-ly :-/ )

Re-checked brake fluid level - still normal.

Took a test drive in slow areas of suburbia with no cars - pedal still feels "softer" than before (goes further/less resistance before the brakes feel like they are operating) but feels better than it was yesterday. Still *seems* like there is some variability in response, one time it engages a little faster or firmer than before, etc, but not nearly as much as when it was hot. Parked it back afterwards awaiting more response though - I still don't feel safe about it.

--
Quote:
Originally Posted by proveniebam View Post
Probably a problem introduced through wear and heat generation.

Could have worn the rear drums down a lot. Pull handbrake up and down 10 times to tighten them up.

Could be some water in brake fluid that's heated up. Let system cool down over a few hours and re-check.

First thing I'd do is remove wheels and check for any unusual wear.
Did the handbrake thing 10 times each on 3 separate occasions spread out - zero change in brake feel from it that I can tell.

See above for 'next day' test drive.

Removed fronts with no sign of unusual wear, but then the parking brake only engages the rears. Didn't remove drums yet because that's more complicated and only 1/4 of my braking anyways. Brakes SEEM to stop okay WHEN they are engaged - it's only the pedal feel and travel that's off from before so far.

--
Quote:
Originally Posted by LabRat View Post
You don't mention whether you have rear discs or drums. If you have drums, sounds like you wore a bunch off the linings and they are now way out of adjustment. In Theory, the automatic adjusters Should take up that slack eventually but in practice they work very poorly if at all.

I'd pull the drums to check there's sufficient lining left and if there is, manually adjust the shoes. If there is not, then you'll need to replace the shoes. While they're off I'd also inspect the drums; they too may now be worn out of spec.
Standard SL (zero) is just drums, only the DOHC/SL2 cars have discs. It's quite possible they are way out of adjustment - braking still seems good though, I just have to move the pedal further. (too far, in the case of that one hot stop after I first released the parking brake - still trying to understand what could have happened there :-/)

As soon as i'm back home i'll pull drums off and check, don't want to do it if I lack the tools to do anything about it yet though. I will re-post from home when I check out those rear brakes - this is just to sort out the pedal feel issue a little better so I feel more confident/safe about driving/limping it home in this condition because for one stop I practically had no brakes and I still lack an understanding of how it could work after but not then.

--
Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If you are certain the parking brake was engaged and you drove the car this way for whatever mileage, you basically boiled the brake fluid, period.

At the least, brake fluid will need to be either flushed out completely or bled to rid boiled fluid from the system and replaced with fresh. Away from home? Either buy the wrench that fits the bleed screws and bleed the system with two people or pay a shop to flush/bleed the system and refill with new DOT-3.
That seems reasonable, i'm pretty certain it was engaged as I drove, unless it somehow engaged on the way home from something hooking and pulling it up but I doubt that. (i had alot of awkwardly fitting stuff between seats, i'm used to using my saturn like a pickup) The only question is how much it was engaged - the brake lever was like 60% up of all the way, but it engages real progressively - I didn't even notice the drag while accelerating away with it soft-engaged like that, but i'm sure even that engagement over 15 miles of 70mph would heat it really really bad.

I don't have money to pay a shop or help at home, but I DO have a homebuilt pressure brake bleeder at home I made out of a garden sprayer (same one I used on the fronts, which worked great) so I will plan to bleed the fluid out shortly after I get home. Since this is different than normal bleeding though how much fluid should I expect to take out of each line? (assumedly more for the rears than the front as well) Like roughly how much does each quadrant of the car take?


So when I get home i'll plan to check the rear drums and can upload pics (in separate thread), and will assume I should have to bleed the brakes out fully. (if it actually was burnt should it smell like it/noticibly different than normal fluid so I know if it's necessary or not?) But i'm still seeking a better understanding of how I ended up with nearly no brakes on that first stop after setting down the parking brake... plus should even wearing down rear brake linings change the feel of the pedal that much, with how thin the tolerances are on all this stuff to begin with? I'm trying to understand the phyiscs of what occurred and what is occurring (the still variable feel, I don't see how burned brake fluid would do that... and i'd assume even with air in lines the sponginess should be more constant?) so I know if there's a risk of it happening again suddenly and without warning. If it was just due to being superheated at the time I can understand that better tho.

Last edited by brokendown; 07-18-2013 at 08:29 PM..

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Old 07-18-2013, 11:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Heat up any fluid - it expands and has to go somewhere. Brake fluid travels in very small diameter brake lines so heated fluid travels back and into the brake master cylinder. This fluid also absorbs moisture and this lowers the boiling point more so fluid expands more. Any boiling means a spongy brake pedal. You can speculate all you want until you remove and inspect the rear drum brakes for delamination of cooked brake shoes, discoloration of drums, signs of over heated parts, and then bleed both rear brake cylinders. The whole brake system holds about about 1.5 pints so flushing out fluid won't use a quart.

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Old 07-19-2013, 04:00 PM   #8
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Driving with the and brake on wears down the shoes. If you let the brakes cool back off and they end up being low but solid then you are OK but need to adjust. They willsurvive this trick with no major damage in most cases. Just check for firm pedal after cooling off.

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:25 PM   #9
brokendown
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Heat up any fluid - it expands and has to go somewhere. Brake fluid travels in very small diameter brake lines so heated fluid travels back and into the brake master cylinder. This fluid also absorbs moisture and this lowers the boiling point more so fluid expands more. Any boiling means a spongy brake pedal. You can speculate all you want until you remove and inspect the rear drum brakes for delamination of cooked brake shoes, discoloration of drums, signs of over heated parts, and then bleed both rear brake cylinders. The whole brake system holds about about 1.5 pints so flushing out fluid won't use a quart.
Well that's kind of the understanding I was looking for, I didn't know whether boiled fluid would or wouldn't create a spongy pedal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Driving with the and brake on wears down the shoes. If you let the brakes cool back off and they end up being low but solid then you are OK but need to adjust. They willsurvive this trick with no major damage in most cases. Just check for firm pedal after cooling off.
Pedal is lower but firm now esp the 2nd day in (feels better than yesterday), going to drive it carefully back home then when i'm back I will pull off the rear drums and up some pics (since i'm a newbie/wont know what i'm looking for when it comes to drums/never done them before) and will see about bleeding the brakes too. (just rears or all four?)

I'll consider this mostly closed for the moment as it sounds like I should be able to get back home okay since it was more driveable today. Thanks for people's advice...

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Old 07-19-2013, 10:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

There is absolutely no technical reason to even think about bleeding the brakes. They will require adjusting though. Don't turn this into a bigger mess than it already is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brokendown View Post
Well that's kind of the understanding I was looking for, I didn't know whether boiled fluid would or wouldn't create a spongy pedal.



Pedal is lower but firm now esp the 2nd day in (feels better than yesterday), going to drive it carefully back home then when i'm back I will pull off the rear drums and up some pics (since i'm a newbie/wont know what i'm looking for when it comes to drums/never done them before) and will see about bleeding the brakes too. (just rears or all four?)

I'll consider this mostly closed for the moment as it sounds like I should be able to get back home okay since it was more driveable today. Thanks for people's advice...

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Old 07-20-2013, 10:30 AM   #11
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

As mentioned already the pedal went away because of the park brake left on and driving. The brake fluid boiled and turned into vapour/gas. Liquid will not compress but vapour/gas will. This is why you lost your pedal. Once everything cools down enough the brake fluid condenses to liquid again and you have you brake pedal again, more or less.

The main expensive issue is that you have a compromised brake system. All of the components on the rear brakes are damaged/compromised.
At bare minimum the brake shoes have been baked and are now to soft. You can likely run a screw driver over the shoe and remove shoe material. The drums will likely have been turned blue or close to due to the heat. The springs for the shoes will have lost proper tension due to the heat. If enough heat was there the dust boots could have melted/started to melt.

At bare minimum the brake system should be inspected and the shoes adjusted.
Proper repair would be to replace the rear brake shoes, drums, all springs, wheel cylinders and bleed the brake fluid all the way around.

My time at Saturn I saw close to a dozen S-series that had this happen.

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Old 07-20-2013, 11:35 AM   #12
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

If you pull a drum and things do not look good in there then the smart move is to strip the brakes completely down to the backing plate and rebuild them. It is not expensive to do this but it is a jigsaw puzzle and those springs and other parts will go in there several ways, only one is correct and the springs have a right side up and upside down for example. How hard teh brake was on and for how long determines what you find when you look.

If you have pedal there is no real immediate problem but it will have to be addressed.

FYI. Back before disk brakes big heavy cars came with drum brakes and you could burn the paint right off the drums and get them hot enough to glow. They would survive this treatment rather well when they cooled back off.

If the shoe is soft and the paint is burned off the springs or the dust boots melted and cylinder leaking then overhaul is definitely in line if the paint is on the springs, cylinder boots are still good and no leaks, and the shoes are not soft you have probably dodged the bullet.

Last edited by OldNuc; 07-20-2013 at 11:41 AM..

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Old 07-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
If you pull a drum and things do not look good in there then the smart move is to strip the brakes completely down to the backing plate and rebuild them. It is not expensive to do this but it is a jigsaw puzzle and those springs and other parts will go in there several ways, only one is correct and the springs have a right side up and upside down for example.
OldNuc is right! That is why, unless you have done this a whole bunch of times, it is a good idea to take pictures as you take things apart so you know which springs and other small parts go which way and hook into which hole, etc.

Even if you watch the Richpin video or see someone else's pics, it still may not be exactly evident how things go back together.

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Old 07-20-2013, 01:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: sudden BRAKE PROB (soft pedal) w/no fluid loss?

You have to do this for BOTH sides as they are not quite mirror images. You can not have enough pictures and you will need a pair of brake shoe and spring pliers. Nobody rebuilds brakes correctly except the owner.

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