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Old 10-20-2012, 03:43 PM   #1
blakerybob03
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Default Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Here's the deal. I bought a 93 saturn sl1 automatic. It had the reverse slam and slammed in all gears. I tested the solenoids and found 1 bad, plus there was fluid in the connector at the top of the transmission.

Went to the junkyard, found a similar saturn with 131K and no fluid in the connector. Tested all solenoids at the junkyard and all tested right at 5.9 ohms. Put this valve body on the car. I took it for a test drive and it drove perfect. Reverse was fine out of the driveway and shifted smooth. I drove it a few miles. Stopped and went to put it in reverse and when I hit the gas, the car went forward, when I put it in Neutral, the car went forward, and in drive the car went forward.

What would cause the car to not go into reverse once it gets warmed up?
My thought is a bad solenoid that manifests itself once warm.

Any help would be great.
...
1993 SL1 With 201K
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakerybob03 View Post
Here's the deal. I bought a 93 saturn sl1 automatic. It had the reverse slam and slammed in all gears. I tested the solenoids and found 1 bad, plus there was fluid in the connector at the top of the transmission.

Went to the junkyard, found a similar saturn with 131K and no fluid in the connector. Tested all solenoids at the junkyard and all tested right at 5.9 ohms. Put this valve body on the car. I took it for a test drive and it drove perfect. Reverse was fine out of the driveway and shifted smooth. I drove it a few miles. Stopped and went to put it in reverse and when I hit the gas, the car went forward, when I put it in Neutral, the car went forward, and in drive the car went forward.

What would cause the car to not go into reverse once it gets warmed up?
My thought is a bad solenoid that manifests itself once warm.

Any help would be great.
I had an explorer have only forward gears after I worked on it... I reassembled the gear selector wrong. Idk anything about saturn automatics, but maybe the shifter just needs adjusted? Odd that it worked fine and then didn't. Maybe something wasn't tight and it moved.
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

I don't think a solenoid could do it unless it's sticking in third or fourth gear (which should be notable by the gear ratio).

Changing from forward to reverse is controlled by the manual valve (what you move with the lever) and a purely hydraulic system (no electrical solenoids). (The manual valve, controlled by the shift lever, allows pressure to enter a circuit which acts on a hydraulic piston, which causes the necessary mechanical action to engage the reverse idler gear.)

An improperly adjusted shift linkage could cause this problem. As it is not electrical, an improperly adjusted range switch could not cause this problem.

A hydraulic failure could also cause this problem: a problem with the manual valve in the valve body or a damaged valve body gasket are probably the most likely possibilities. If a visual inspection of the gasket doesn't show anything, there's a good chance it's a valve body problem, which, while possible, isn't typically practical as a DIY repair.

Once you confirm the shift linkage is correct, I would visually inspect the valve body gasket, and assuming no problems, swap back the old valve body, after replacing the dead solenoid (with one from the replacement valve body). You may still have the reverse slam issue, but it will work as an indication that the "new" valve body is also bad, assuming everything else works correctly.

If you need a new valve body, member SpecialForces has a very good reputation rebuilding them. His prices are not competitive with most junkyards, but you know it will work correctly and last a long time (the rebuilds include modifications which reduce if not completely eliminate the possibility of a second reverse slam failure, regardless of mileage).

edit: I was wrong (well; not wrong, but I missed something). There is a safety built in, wherein low main line pressure will prevent shifting to reverse (so you can't put it in reverse above a certain speed). I believe an electrical failure would cause high pressure, not low pressure, in most cases, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn FSM
The servo apply valve, located in the valvebody, is used to control reverse apply oil to the forward/reverse servo piston. When reverse is selected, the manual valve will allow oil to be applied to the servo apply valve. If vehicle speed input to the PCM indicates the vehicle is less than 8 km/h (5 mph) then the dog clutch can be moved to the reverse direction without causing damage. With the vehicle speed less than 8 km/h (5 mph), and reverse selected, the PCM will command high-line pressure. When high-line pressure is commanded, the pressure will move the servo apply valve against the spring which opens up the passage allowing oil to pass through the servo apply valve to the forward/reverse servo piston.

If reverse is selected when vehicle speed is greater than 8 km (5 mph), the PCM will command low-line pressure causing the servo apply spring to keep the passage in the servo apply valve closed, preventing oil to reach the forward/reverse servo piston. This action does not allow the dog clutch to move, thus preventing internal damage to the transaxle.
How does it shift in other gears? If pressure is low all the time, it will shift very softly, and may slip a bit on shifts.
...
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Last edited by PlasticCarsRock; 10-20-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:55 AM   #4
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Shifts perfect in forward gears. Last 2 mornings it has gone in reverse when cold. After only 2 or 3 min, reverse is gone.
...
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

I put the old valve body back in and it is doing some funny things. The car went into reverse but it felt as if the e-brake was on slightly. You had to push pretty hard on the accelerator to get it to go and then when you let off the gas, it would come to an immediate stop. After a while I lost reverse all together, although if it sits in reverse for a few min, it eventually slams into reverse and comes back, but same as before, sluggish and almost like the brake is on. Could this be cause by improper torque on the bolts that hold the valve body down. I just found there is a pattern and torque spec I did not follow.
...
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Have you considered a loose Input Shaft Nut?
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

The only reason I hate to look else where is that reverse worked fine, all gears worked fine, I just had a hard shift. As soon as I started messing with the valve body, the problems started. I am back to the original valve body and the problems are still there.
...
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakerybob03 View Post
The only reason I hate to look else where is that reverse worked fine, all gears worked fine, I just had a hard shift. As soon as I started messing with the valve body, the problems started. I am back to the original valve body and the problems are still there.
Some folks here believe it's the slamming that loosens the Nut. Maybe a little coincidental that it manifested after the VB swap. I know with my Nut Reverse gradually left the bldg as the car warmed up.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Battery tested good but alternator is only charging at 12.8 amps. Could this be the culprit? All fuses are good.
...
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakerybob03 View Post
Battery tested good but alternator is only charging at 12.8 amps. Could this be the culprit?
Definitely - these trannies don't like low voltage.
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Old 12-02-2012, 07:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakerybob03 View Post
Battery tested good but alternator is only charging at 12.8 amps. Could this be the culprit? All fuses are good.
12.8 amps is fine, if the voltage is fine, although 12.8 amps does sound way to low to run everything and maintain a proper voltage.

Check the voltage at the battery, with the car running with the accessories off. If you have anything close to 14 volts (definitely over 13), the alternator is charging properly.

Voltage is what matters, not amperage. You have no idea how much amperage you need, because it depends on how much power the car is consuming (engine controls, accessories, and how much current the battery is taking, if any, to charge). As long as the voltage is correct, the amperage is also correct. If the amperage were to drop, so would the voltage.

If you mean 12.8 VOLTS not amps, then you may have a problem, however, a somewhat low voltage at idle is not unusual if you have a lot of accessories on (normal battery voltage is roughly 12.68V, so anything over that indicates that the alternator is working, at least somewhat). Raise the rpm to 2000 and check again (it should be over 13V). At idle, even 12.8V should be plenty for everything to work, including the transmission, and it is completely normal for the voltage to drop that low at idle, if you have accessories on (in fact, with all accessories on, in gear, at warm idle, you would be unlikely to have even 12.8 volts, with a perfectly healthy alternator).

To rule out a diode problem in the alternator, set your multimeter to read AC volts (yes: AC, not DC). Test the battery like you would for normal DC voltage, and see what you get. It should be pretty small (mili-volts). If you have close to or over 0.5V (500mV), you probably have a failed diode in the alternator's rectifier.
...
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Old 12-04-2012, 10:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

I did mean volts sorry. I work at the sears auto center and we were slow the other day so we pulled it in and ran the diehard test. 12.88 volts charging at 1500-2000 RPM'S. The tester said the diodes were good.

I will try the other tests you suggested.

Thanks
...
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:41 PM   #13
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakerybob03 View Post
I did mean volts sorry. I work at the sears auto center and we were slow the other day so we pulled it in and ran the diehard test. 12.88 volts charging at 1500-2000 RPM'S. The tester said the diodes were good.
In the interest of some benchmarks, and out of curiosity, I took some measurements on my '95. Right after starting, my Alternator puts out 14.8V. Doesn't increase at all going up to 2000 rpm. Slowly dropped to 14.7V after recharging a little while. My AC volts is <0.03V regardless of rpm.

I'm thinking your Alt is not too healthy and may or may not be causing your tranny problems. When my Alt failed, my car would barely move, although the battery voltage may have been well below 12V by then.
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Old 02-17-2014, 07:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blakerybob03 View Post
Shifts perfect in forward gears. Last 2 mornings it has gone in reverse when cold. After only 2 or 3 min, reverse is gone.
Sorry to bring back a thread from the dead, but my Son's 92 SL2 is doing the same thing. BlakeryBob03, did you ever find the cure for your problem?
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

My daughter's 96 SL2 w/210k - is doing the same thing...
"...went to put it in reverse and when I hit the gas, the car went forward, when I put it in Neutral, the car went forward, and in drive the car went forward." Also, in drive it feels like it's slipping. I started a separate thread on 2-13-2014 titled, "96 SL2 - Auto Trans Won't Go Into Gear."
The trans troubles started 2-days after draining & refilling trans.
Now I'm wondering where to start...
Hydraulic failure?
Warn Valve Body?
Loose Input Shaft Nut?

-Howard

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Old 02-18-2014, 02:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

How is the condition of the fluid? How recently has it been replaced?

My thoughts may be out of line, but it was referenced in the dead post that the car runs fine when cold, but not when warmed up. Is it possible that the fluid is bad, and is more viscous when cold, and thins out way too much at temp, to the point it can't properly actuate the hydraulics?

I know (unfortunately from experience) that old fluid, even that which has been replaced regularly but on a schedule beyond OEM, can cause the trans to do funky things.

What fluid do you have / did you last put in? Maybe it was the wrong type. Or maybe you have too many miles on it. Try changing the fluid (and the filter if it has been a really long time), and see how that affects things. If it fixes things, then I would suggest a series of short changes to get all of the old out and new in, as not all drains out with a drain/fill.

It is not a terribly expensive nor difficult task, and is something that should be done regularly anyway.
...
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Put it in reverse, the car goes forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98PearlSC2 View Post
The trans troubles started 2-days after draining & refilling trans.
fluid, I would assume. When 'simple' maintenance goes bad...

Just answering a question from most recent poster.
...
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:18 PM   #18
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Checkered Flag My Trans Now Goes Into Reverse, Neutral & Drive…

Resolved? 96SL2 w/210k Auto Trans Now Goes Into Reverse, Neutral & Drive…
On Sunday I added a quart of Dexron III ATF w/no improvement: the trans still did not go into reverse gear – it actually wanted to go forward.
Today, Wednesday, I pushed it back onto the street and drove it 5 miles to Advance Auto to have them check the engine codes. On the way I felt the trans shift smoothly 3 times: 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th gear. Hmmm…that’s an improvement. As I parked at the store I put in into Neutral & it worked! I put it in Reverse & it worked! Could it be that all of the troubles were caused by trans fluid being too low after the drain & refill? They checked the car’s computer – there were no codes. I drove the car back home & rechecked the ATF level: it’s at the upper end of the “when hot” region on the dipstick.

Now I’m starting to believe that our trans trouble was caused by too little trans fluid. I just hope the trans wasn't damaged by driving it w/too little fluid. The car is now drivable, but the trans still isn’t acting quite right when in reverse. It's my daughter's car, but I will drive it for a while & continue to monitor.

The Lessons I Learned are,
1. Don't Underfill after draining the trans - 1 qt makes a big difference.
2. If you have the same symptoms (won't back up and actually wants to go forward when shifter is placed in reverse or neutral), immediately suspect low trans fluid.
Hopefully this helps someone in the future.
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: My Trans Now Goes Into Reverse, Neutral & Drive…

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98PearlSC2 View Post
Resolved? 96SL2 w/210k Auto Trans Now Goes Into Reverse, Neutral & Drive…
On Sunday I added a quart of Dexron III ATF w/no improvement: the trans still did not go into reverse gear – it actually wanted to go forward.
Today, Wednesday, I pushed it back onto the street and drove it 5 miles to Advance Auto to have them check the engine codes. On the way I felt the trans shift smoothly 3 times: 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th gear. Hmmm…that’s an improvement. As I parked at the store I put in into Neutral & it worked! I put it in Reverse & it worked! Could it be that all of the troubles were caused by trans fluid being too low after the drain & refill? They checked the car’s computer – there were no codes. I drove the car back home & rechecked the ATF level: it’s at the upper end of the “when hot” region on the dipstick.

Now I’m starting to believe that our trans trouble was caused by too little trans fluid. I just hope the trans wasn't damaged by driving it w/too little fluid. The car is now drivable, but the trans still isn’t acting quite right when in reverse. It's my daughter's car, but I will drive it for a while & continue to monitor.

The Lessons I Learned are,
1. Don't Underfill after draining the trans - 1 qt makes a big difference.
2. If you have the same symptoms (won't back up and actually wants to go forward when shifter is placed in reverse or neutral), immediately suspect low trans fluid.
Hopefully this helps someone in the future.
I'll check the fluid level again. I'll be damned if that's what it is.
I was about to put his old valve body (shift bang issue) in this tranny to see if the reverse issue is tied to it.
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Old 02-28-2014, 08:34 PM   #20
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Default Re: My Trans Now Goes Into Reverse, Neutral & Drive…

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCNDAV View Post
I'll check the fluid level again. I'll be damned if that's what it is.
I was about to put his old valve body (shift bang issue) in this tranny to see if the reverse issue is tied to it.
I checked the fluid when he got home the other night and it was filled to the full mark. Fluid looked/smelled good.

His original tranny blew a hole out the front case.
I think it "Shift banged" one too many times


We ordered a used tranny online. Replaced all the seals and filters.
This one shifts nice, but when it warms up, reverse (and Nuetral) want to go forward. We tried adjusting the cable and shift selector. The only thing I can think of is Valve body. We don't know the history of this tranny.

I'm not totally sure if the valve body could be the issue, but it is the only thing that I can think of that would change after it heats up.
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