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Old 08-22-2012, 10:50 PM   #1
LongHornDave
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Default Yet Another P0410 problem

2002 Saturn SL2 with 120K miles.

State inspection due at end of month.
d
Threw a P0410 code about a week ago. Cleared it several times
with my cheapo scanner, but it came right back.

I went through the Richpin diagnostic video. Everything looks good.
The silver tube between the diverter valve and the exhaust manifold
was pretty clean. Just a touch of build up. Good air flow out of the
diverter valve when the pump turns on for about 30 seconds shortly
after start-up. Good exhaust flow out of the hole in the manifold
with the tube removed. The wire block under the air pump is is clean
and corrosion free. In fact, all the connections look good.

I could try to clean the exhaust manifold, but given that the tube
was so clean, this seems unlikely to help. I have been running synthetic
oil since I bought the car in 2008 with about 70K on it.

I have an ECTS on order, but I am not optimistic. At this point, I am
ready to just replace the front O2 sensor and the diverter valve, assuming
the ECTS doesn't fix it. Not sure what else to try.

Most of the threads talk about this being a problem that tends to show
up in cold weather. This is clearly not the case in Texas in August.

End of August is coming soon.

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Old 08-23-2012, 08:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

If the diverter valve is opening and air pours out of it when the air pump is running, there is no reason to replace it. I'm currently having the same issue. I suspect that the manifold and head ports are partially plugged. They are open enough to allow some exhaust out when the tube is removed, but clogged enough that the air from the pump does not flow at a sufficient rate to give the front O2 sensor a happy reading. So, my suggestion is to remove the exhaust manifold and clean out the air passages. That's what I'll be doing sometime before next April, when my inspection is due.

Funny thing about my P0410. The light will stay on for weeks. But, when we have a hard rain, like we did Saturday night in the Houston area, the light will go out on its own sometime the next day. It hasn't come back on yet after about 400 miles of driving. I know it will return, but I'm at a loss as to why rain cures the problem for a week or so.

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Old 08-23-2012, 09:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

How clogged was that silver tube between the valve and the manifold on your Saturn? Mine had as much dirt on the outside as on the inside, so that made me think that the manifold was probably just as clean.

I really would prefer not to pull that manifold unless I am reasonably sure that it will work. I had a bad experience pulling a manifold on my old Buick back in high school, so perhaps that had made it more frightening in my mind than reality.

Interesting about the rain. Maybe I'll take it to the car wash this weekend and see if I can get it to pass inspection to buy some time.

My son drives the car most of the time, and cleanliness is not one of his strengths.

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Old 08-23-2012, 11:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Silver tube just had some loose goo in it last time I had if off. The crud in the head and behind the manifold gets baked at a much higher temperature. I've had the manifold off before, a couple of years ago. It came off quite easily. My car is an oil-burner, so I guess it has gotten caked up again.

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Old 08-31-2012, 09:50 PM   #5
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Default Fixed

My son took it to the last day of the month, so we took it into the shop. They pulled the exhaust manifold and said that although the passage was clean, the holes were clogged. Also put in a new O2 sensor.

Charged me 3 hours labor.

Could have saved a lot of money doing it ourselves, but hopefully the boy learned that his dad is usually right.

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Old 09-03-2012, 09:33 AM   #6
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Default It's back.

Well, after 3 days, the SES lit back up with the old PO410.

But the car passed inspection, so I am of a mind to just not worry
about it for a while.

The car runs well, so I don't think it's the cat.

About all I can think is that the shop put in an aftermarket O2, even
though I specifically requested the Denso part. Any way to check
it other than pulling it out?

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Old 09-03-2012, 01:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: It's back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongHornDave View Post
Well, after 3 days, the SES lit back up with the old PO410.

But the car passed inspection, so I am of a mind to just not worry
about it for a while.

The car runs well, so I don't think it's the cat.

About all I can think is that the shop put in an aftermarket O2, even
though I specifically requested the Denso part. Any way to check
it other than pulling it out?
I checked the bill. The part number is that of the Denso part.

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Old 09-04-2012, 07:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

There is no harm in continuing to drive with the P0410 active. Just get in the habit of putting your scanner on it once a month or so to confirm no other codes hiding behind the P0410. I've owned my Saturn for 6 + years and the SES has been on at least half the time I've owned it - always P0410. Good luck, well timed rain storms and some direct interventions to repair/clean things have gotten me past inspection all those years.

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Old 09-05-2012, 11:18 AM   #9
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
There is no harm in continuing to drive with the P0410 active. Just get in the habit of putting your scanner on it once a month or so to confirm no other codes hiding behind the P0410. I've owned my Saturn for 6 + years and the SES has been on at least half the time I've owned it - always P0410. Good luck, well timed rain storms and some direct interventions to repair/clean things have gotten me past inspection all those years.
Wow. I just received this code this morning. I'm not happy to see that it is not an easy fix.

...
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:30 AM   #10
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSaturn02 View Post
Wow. I just received this code this morning. I'm not happy to see that it is not an easy fix.
Maybe we should start a P0410 club!!! Since your car doesn't use much oil, perhaps your problem won't require pulling the exhaust manifold. I've had the air pump die, the diverter valve actuator fail and the solenoid vacuum valve fail. All are easy fixes.

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Old 09-05-2012, 12:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
Maybe we should start a P0410 club!!! Since your car doesn't use much oil, perhaps your problem won't require pulling the exhaust manifold. I've had the air pump die, the diverter valve actuator fail and the solenoid vacuum valve fail. All are easy fixes.
Well, it used a lot lately - long road trip, much of it at 80+ MPH. That probably contributed to that. Anybody have a link to the Richpin video for checking?

...
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Sticker: $13,995 As of 09/30/17: 223,751 Miles - SOLD

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Old 09-05-2012, 02:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Found it, the video that is..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIrmk...eature=related

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Old 09-05-2012, 02:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

I noticed something else richpin mentioned. "Three other things it can be are a crack in the flex pipe,rear O2 sensor or the catalytic converter."

I know I ran over a rubber cone on the road a few days ago. I wonder if somehow I damaged something under there? Anyone have a picture of this flex pipe he speaks of?

...
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Sticker: $13,995 As of 09/30/17: 223,751 Miles - SOLD

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Old 09-05-2012, 03:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

The exhaust leaks and locations you mention are more often associated with the P0420 catalyst efficiency code than with P0410. I've never watched the Richpin video, so I don't know what he says, and he knows more about these cars than I do. Basically, he is pointing to a leak anywhere from the pipe connection at the exhaust manifold to the back of the catalytic converter. The flex pipe is part of that section of exhaust, and I'm fairly sure it is the section that appears to have braiding on it.

When the air injection system is working correctly, the air pump dumps air into the exhaust stream upstream of the front O2 sensor. The PCM expects a lean reading from that sensor because of the extra air. If it does not get the lean reading expected, on goes the SES light. Maybe someone else can explain how a leak downstream of all this activity could set the P0410 code - I don't get it.

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Old 09-05-2012, 03:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
I've never watched the Richpin video, so I don't know what he says, and he knows more about these cars than I do. Basically, he is pointing to a leak anywhere from the pipe connection at the exhaust manifold to the back of the catalytic converter.
I posted the link to his video. Actually, he seems to think it is most likely clogged with crud in that thin pipe coming out of the exhaust manifold to above the A/C area. I may try taking that apart and cleaning tomorrow. Cleaning rarely hurts anything, I hope.

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Old 09-05-2012, 03:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Cleaning that tube out is a very good place to start. If it is packed with black crud, it is very likely that the air passages in the exhaust manifold and cylinder head are in the same condition.

While the tube is off, with the engine cold, start it up. Feel for a strong stream of air coming out of the hole in the diverter valve where one end of the tube came off. If you get air flow here for 30-45 seconds after start up, the air pump, diverter valve and solenoid vacuum valve are all working. If not, then you have to do some process of elimination to figure out which component has failed.

After you have verified air flow, get a couple of paper towels and hold them next to the hole in the exhaust manifold where the other end of the tube came off while an assistant lightly revs the engine. Exhaust should be pouring out of this hole. If not, it is very likely the manifold has to come off for air passage cleaning.

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Old 09-06-2012, 12:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

just got back from purchasing some gasoline and carb cleaner (I only have one car so now I need to let her cool down a bit). In about an hour, I'll take the pipe out and let her soak in gasoline for a half hour or so, then let her air dry. I'll also use the carb cleaner on the connection areas. Did I mention it is suppose to get near 100 today in Houston and a feels like well over? Oh well, I don't mind sweating when I'm dressed for it - at least I'll be in the shade. Oh what fun ..

Any suggestions are welcome.

...
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

As a fellow Harris county resident for 21 years now, I fully understand the joy of working on the car this time of year. You may need something to poke through the tube once you have it off and after the soak attacks the gunk. A metal coat hanger, piece of stiff wire or something similar will work. In our heat, the car may need to sit for 3-4 hours before you can do the start up with the tube removed check described in a previous post. The air pump is commanded on by the PCM on start up only if the ECTS reports a coolant temperature below a certain level (don't recall the actual temp). If the engine is still too warm, the pump won't run, so you can't check if it is working.

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Old 09-06-2012, 01:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by BV22 View Post
If the engine is still too warm, the pump won't run, so you can't check if it is working.
Thanks. I don't have to use the car again until tomorrow afternoon. I can always try it in the morning. Cleaning and soaking can start in earnest until then.

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Old 09-06-2012, 02:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: Yet Another P0410 problem

Mine might very well be wiring or the air pump as I took the pipe off and it doesn't look that bad. I'll take pictures and clean it anyway.

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