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Old 05-22-2013, 09:21 AM   #21
jimmie504
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Thumbs Up Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Trial and Error is a method by which we obtain perfection, because with every trial, We refine and harness the process to completion. Even GM was not aware that the Saturn CVT swap would be overcome, for had they knew, they would have simply resolve those issues and replaced, rather than trying to repair. Eventually they found solutions, but for those of Us who had to figure this thing out, it was a journey - gaining experience to help others in needs of hard economical times. We did not charge a dime, offered our information and said good luck. And once the job was well done, you smile and said proudly, "I done that...."

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Old 05-31-2013, 11:42 PM   #22
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Hello, newb here. I've been a lurker for about a year, and joined about a month ago. I'd just like to say "thanks" for being my go to source for Saturn info. It was this forum that inspired me to do the 4T45E swap.

I followed 03vuevti2af23's suggestion, and bought '06 Vue 4T45E trans, '06 Ion TCM, and '07 Ion wiring harness. The mechanicals are done, initial fluid in trans, trans lines spliced to old CVT cooler after flushing with 2 cans of aerosol trans line cleaner, and harness is 98% complete. I've got all of the wires swapped to the fusebox connector, but the one that isn't making sense is the neutral safety/gear select plug, 10 small pins/2 large pins. On the VTi trans plug, the purple output goes directly to the starter, and there is no purple wire in the Ion harness.

Instead of just taking from this site, I figured I would try to contribute in some small way, so I did take pix of the differences in the cradles and mounts. I had read how other had modified their VTi cradle, but I could see that was going to be quite a job. The mounts all look similar, but when you go to bolt things up, they don't. Hopefully my pix attach OK. The VTi cradle is on top of the 4T45E cradle in the pix. The front mount is offset, as well as the rear, and the brackets are different as well. The top mount is very different as well. Finding a yard that will work with you on obtaining these items is a must, as some don't keep the donor vehicle around once the big ticket items are removed. I paid $300 for the trans, harness and TCM and they put a 90 day warranty on all of it. I called two weeks later and they dug up the mounts and cradle for another $300.

I will post results and pix when complete.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FrtMountRearView.jpg (95.1 KB, 142 views)
File Type: jpg RearMountLocation.jpg (122.8 KB, 121 views)
File Type: jpg RearTransBracket.jpg (107.2 KB, 110 views)
File Type: jpg RearMount.jpg (118.3 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg TopMount.jpg (100.9 KB, 108 views)

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Old 06-01-2013, 12:22 PM   #23
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

You've come a long way with this project ... great work.

I've attached engine start diagram for 06 Vue with 2.2 depicting clutch and auto trans park neutral safety switch wiring (crank signal from ignition to PNP = yellow wire - start signal from PNP to starter relay = purple wire).

I also have start diagrams for 03 Vue and 06 Ion but they're too large to post.

Send an email address by private message if you'd like those diagrams.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 06 Vue - Eng Start Ckt - AT.pdf (91.0 KB, 102 views)

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Old 06-02-2013, 01:17 PM   #24
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

I emailed the requesting wiring diagrams ... I'll update this post for future users.

Its odd but all VUE’s with 2.2 - either auto or manual trans – lack a start relay – explaining why large gauge wire is needed to latch starter solenoid (line is usually fused at 30 amps).

The 06 ION does have a separate start relay. I have no documentation indicating if ION 4T45E PNP switch is different than switch used on VUE’s with same trans.

The ION start circuit is different than what we VUE folks are used to. Turning ION key to START causes the ECM engage the starter until engine starts. The VUE is not so exotic.

Let me know if you need anything else.

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Old 06-02-2013, 05:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Well, with far2grumpy's help, I got a little farther along this weekend. Also, I have some more pix of differences for the install.

The trans cooler lines are spaced the same, but the 4T45E has one that is deeper than the other. The two pictures show the VTi lines in the front of the 4T45E lines. I utilized the VTi cooler after flushing it with two cans of cooler cleaner, $13 each at the local parts store. This stuff is volatile, but effective. The second can was probably overkill, but more metal shavings did come out, so I guess it was worth it. I used the 4T45E's cooler line connection at the trans, splicing to the original VTi cooler with 3/8" double-ended brass hose connectors, and clamps, locating the clamps carefully so they won't rub each other or hoses or wires.

The CV shafts were replace with new from Rock Auto for ~$100. This was an AWD car, not any longer.

I'm very close to finishing this project, I just have questions on two wires that don't make sense yet. With far2grumpy's advice, I re-used the heavy gauge start wires from the original PNP(Park//neutral position) into the Ion replacement plug, yellow from the fusebox and purple to the starter. The first of two wires in question are the yellow on the round trans plug. On the Ion, this went to the fusebox. Following 03vuevti2af23's advice, I re-pinned everything to corresponding colors, but there was not like connection for this wire. Is there a pin on the fuse connector, or should this get spliced with another yellow? The only other yellow in the fusebox is the heavy gauge starter wire. There is another small yellow in the upper main trans plug, don't know what it's function is. Bottom line is I need to get a manual or DVD to dive into something this serious. I still will, just wondering if someone currently more knowledgeable than me can help. The second wire in question is the brown that I assumed was from the BCM or ABS connector on the Ion. It was next to the LAN wires. The Vue BCM has a similarly colored wire, I am confused as to whether to splice or if there is an order of connection or what the function of this wire is. Once I get the yellow and brown sorted out, I believe I will be ready to fire.

Thanks for any help, and I hope to keep documenting this to help others follow down the road.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TrnsCoolerLines.jpg (85.2 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg TrnsCoolerLines2.jpg (81.5 KB, 78 views)
File Type: jpg CoolerLineSplice.jpg (104.6 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg MainTransPlugs.jpg (208.2 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg VueBCMBrwnWire.jpg (186.5 KB, 88 views)

Last edited by RedlineWannabe; 06-02-2013 at 05:36 PM.. Reason: poor use of the English language...

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Old 06-06-2013, 09:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

where can i get the flash firmware?

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Old 06-13-2013, 09:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlineWannabe View Post
Well, with far2grumpy's help, I got a little farther along this weekend. Also, I have some more pix of differences for the install.

The trans cooler lines are spaced the same, but the 4T45E has one that is deeper than the other. The two pictures show the VTi lines in the front of the 4T45E lines. I utilized the VTi cooler after flushing it with two cans of cooler cleaner, $13 each at the local parts store. This stuff is volatile, but effective. The second can was probably overkill, but more metal shavings did come out, so I guess it was worth it. I used the 4T45E's cooler line connection at the trans, splicing to the original VTi cooler with 3/8" double-ended brass hose connectors, and clamps, locating the clamps carefully so they won't rub each other or hoses or wires.

The CV shafts were replace with new from Rock Auto for ~$100. This was an AWD car, not any longer.

I'm very close to finishing this project, I just have questions on two wires that don't make sense yet. With far2grumpy's advice, I re-used the heavy gauge start wires from the original PNP(Park//neutral position) into the Ion replacement plug, yellow from the fusebox and purple to the starter. The first of two wires in question are the yellow on the round trans plug. On the Ion, this went to the fusebox. Following 03vuevti2af23's advice, I re-pinned everything to corresponding colors, but there was not like connection for this wire. Is there a pin on the fuse connector, or should this get spliced with another yellow? The only other yellow in the fusebox is the heavy gauge starter wire. There is another small yellow in the upper main trans plug, don't know what it's function is. Bottom line is I need to get a manual or DVD to dive into something this serious. I still will, just wondering if someone currently more knowledgeable than me can help. The second wire in question is the brown that I assumed was from the BCM or ABS connector on the Ion. It was next to the LAN wires. The Vue BCM has a similarly colored wire, I am confused as to whether to splice or if there is an order of connection or what the function of this wire is. Once I get the yellow and brown sorted out, I believe I will be ready to fire.

Thanks for any help, and I hope to keep documenting this to help others follow down the road.
The brown wire is actually brown/black wire and it is your MFL or Malfunction Indicator Lamp. You will also see a blue wire which is your stop lamp. If you look on your 4t45 control module, you will see that all wires correspond to one another by color code. The Yellow wire goes into the transmission range which is connected to the powertrain module for which you do not have, but needs to replace the ecu. Go to autozone website and register, then once you register an account (free) list your saturn vue and ion. After registering, go to repair help, click on wire diagrams, then go to 04 saturn ion or 05 saturn vue. The diagrams are there. You'll know what to do then.

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Old 06-13-2013, 10:27 PM   #28
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Wrench Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

For the DYI, I would like to take opportunity to address the 4t45 in the 02-04 saturn vue. First, the parts needed would be 06 Saturn ION Powertrain control module (as the module is link to the transmission range sensor), the tcm (as this module is link to the Data connection, stop lamp, starter control, malfunction indicator and the CAN Bus system), and other mounting parts, axle and craddle.
Secondly, make sure that your vue 2.2 has the Electronically control throttle body position sensor TAC and APP, as this will play a crucial role in the wiring plug n play format when wiring in your powertrain system. You need to also change your body control module, because the powertrain controls the GM Lan high speed data connection. You will need to retrieve this from 05-06 saturn vue. Without this, the body control module will not beable to communicate this your transmission control module. It will run without it, but your speed odometer will indicate incorrect speed. For addition info, go to autozone cite.

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Old 06-24-2013, 09:33 AM   #29
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Hi everyone,

I'm also new at this conversion.

So far I have the 4T45E transmission bolted on to the engine (2.2l Ecotec)

I had used the top side mount from a 05 Ion, the transmission is a 05 Malibu.

I'm building the two mounts (front/rear) The front mount is just the original brackets cut off with some new steel added (2x2 angle iron) to reposition it. The rear is using a plate of 1/8 steel and the old bracket from the VTI transmission cut up and welded to the plate (with a couple more pieces of angle iron).

I had to cut up the cradle a lot so the transmission wouldn't hit and rub.

So I got a couple questions.

I got the wires (someone destroyed the harness so I just have a couple feet of wire on each plug of the 4T45E transmission) for the new tranny and I need to marry them into the existing wire harness.

What I need is diagrams for an 05 Saturn Ion harness and a 03 Saturn Vue with 2.5l engines. With this information I hope to marry the two harnesses.

Does anyone have any ideas on where I can get this information?

Also what has everyone done for CV axles, I noticed the CV axles I took out won't work with the new transmission, was there a make/model of a car that had the right size axles or do I got to get them custom made?

I look forward to getting this moving as soon as possible, trying to work on the wire harness this week but slim pickings finding the wire diagrams, or I simply don't know where to look I guess.

Joe

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Old 06-24-2013, 12:17 PM   #30
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

I can provide wiring diagrams from GM service manual.

No guarantee they're 100% accurate but they beat having nothing.

Send email address using private message (left click on my screen name) if interested.

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Old 06-24-2013, 06:03 PM   #31
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

HI everyone,

What about CV Axles??

Anyone have any luck with this issue?

Do I simply cut and match?

Joe

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:36 AM   #32
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

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HI everyone,

What about CV Axles??

Anyone have any luck with this issue?

Do I simply cut and match?

Joe
Something odd, I was told this was a 05 Malibu transmission yet on this site none of the CV axles match what I took of the transmission.

wholesaleimportparts.com/Chevrolet_Malibu_Axle_2005.php

They all show up as female on the passenger side but I had a male, the transmission came with the boot end still in the transmission on both sides. This makes me suspect that my transmission is not what it seems to be.

I counted the teeth and it has 34 on the spine that goes into the transmission. So does the original CVT axles, only thing wrong is the fact that where the seal ride is a lot smaller on the CVT axle then on the boot I took off the 4t45E transmission.

I'm thinking of checking out the 2007 vue model CV axles

wholesaleimportparts.com/Saturn_Vue_Axle_2007.php

Though I'm guessing since the passenger side is male I need two of the drivers side, which might make it a little longer then needed.

Thoughts? I have heard nothing on this subject.

Joe

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Old 07-03-2013, 08:46 PM   #33
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Dizzy Update

Hello, all. Family emergencies have slowed progress on this conversion, but here is where it stands today: The yellow wire I had questioned was determined to be a power wire which came from C2/pin E5 on the Ion harness, as identified with the diagram help I got from far2grumpy as circuit Ign1. I did some searching through my notes from when I converted the Vue harness, and I happened to have an Ign1 circuit open that had a pink wire for the CVT trans, this was underhood fusebox (UHFB)C2/pin B10. That took care of the yellow wire, the brown I had questions about is identified as AccVoltage with the suggestion by jimmie504 of using the wiring diagrams on the AutoZone site. I was already a member, but had never used the tech help there before. My 2003 Vue is not listed, but they have 2004-2005 listed, and I studied them pretty thoroughly, and did not find differences.

So, it runs, but will not shift out of first gear, but runs fine, other than the "reduced power" light is on along with the "service engine" light. I believe 03vuevti2af23's suggestion of being able to use the stock BCM with a re-route of the Keyword Serial Data line, but I do not have ABS, and have checked the continuity of the brown/white from the ECM to UHFB C2/pinA1 to UHFB C3/pinF1 to Data Link Connector pin 7, and have connection all the way. My AutoZone scanner says it has no codes, but when I look at freeze-frame data, it has code U2106, which is no connection to TCM. I tried the ECM from my '04 manual, and it must be looking for the clutch switch because it will crank but no fire.

I have to say a special thanks to far2grumpy, as he was more than generous with his time and information. I have not found the CD set he has, I am wanting to purchase it/them so I have them.

I thought I sent a PM to 03vuevti2af23, but maybe it did not send properly. I am open to suggestions.

The other thing I read while searching for info on Keyword Serial Data was a helpsite suggestion of ohming out the CAN lines, maybe I need a resistor to get my CAN resistance to 120 ohms? I need to see if it is at 60 ohms first, that will be another day, I've had enough.

dark7622, I knew when I converted my AWD to FWD at least the passenger CV shaft would be too short, and the junkyard wanted $35/axle. I figured for another $30 I'd start with new ones guaranteed to fit from RockAuto.com. I'm glad I did, slid right in and bolted right up.

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Old 07-15-2013, 03:06 PM   #34
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Hi Redline, I got two new ones (CV Axles) for a FWD 2007 Vue and they went right in and worked fine.

Currently I'm at the state you are in, I have the yellow wire from the neutral safety switch to a relay for the starter. Though when I looked over the diagram it shows the yellow wire going though the ECM CONT relay, did you do that?

Can you tell me how you wired up that yellow wire though the ECM relay?

I ended up with two wires that have no connection, one pink wire and that Acc brown wire.

Please let me know what you did so I can get mine at least running.

Joe

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Old 07-16-2013, 05:55 AM   #35
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

I re-read what I posted.

I'm not quite at your state Readline, I can't get the motor to start, the starter turns over but will not run. I got to check a few things first of course, like if I got fire to the spark plugs and fuel.

Has anyone had such a problem?

Just so everyone knows.

I got a 2003 Saturn Vue with AWD 2.2L with the world famous VTI transmission.

I switched the tranny over to a Malibu 4t45E transmission, welded in new front mount, made new rear mount, used the Saturn ION top mount.

I got all the mechanicals in place, though I couldn't find a complete 2005 Saturn ION wire harness, the only Ion I could find had the wires cut when they pulled the engine. So I pieced together a harness and merged it with the Vue harness.

So other than not starting, everything appears to be working fine. I got a new relay for the starter using the yellow wire from the neutral safety switch.

I had only two wires left over that I didn't know what to do with (I think if I remember right) maybe three.

Accessory power wire
1 (had three but only two was needed it seems)Pink Power Ign wire
(I think, need to review) Key data Wire

Any idea's???

Joe

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Old 07-16-2013, 06:25 AM   #36
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

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Originally Posted by dark7622 View Post
Currently I'm at the state you are in, I have the yellow wire from the neutral safety switch to a relay for the starter. Though when I looked over the diagram it shows the yellow wire going though the ECM CONT relay, did you do that?

Can you tell me how you wired up that yellow wire though the ECM relay?

I ended up with two wires that have no connection, one pink wire and that Acc brown wire.

Please let me know what you did so I can get mine at least running.
Dark-Sorry I haven't logged on for a couple of days. The yellow wire for the start relay on the Ion harness is much smaller gauge than that of the Vue, because on the Ion it only engages a start relay. far2grumpy had helped me with that, and I decided to re-use the original purple and yellow start wires from the Vue harness to carry the current to the solenoid.

As far as the pink wire, can you tell me what circuit it is for? I had a yellow wire left over on the Ion harness that was for circuit IGN1, and I had B10 open on UHFB C2 in the Vue harness that had B10 open, which originally had a pink wire. Hope this helps.

My project is stalled until I figure out how to get the Keyword Serial Data converted to something the BCM can understand. I'm going for help from our electrical/software engineer at work. The other option that I'm considering is putting a BCM from a manual trans vehicle, along with the harness. That requires removing the whole interior and dash, not something I'd look forward to, but it beats driving into my driveway and staring at the vehicle I can't use! I had tried my manual trans ECM on the auto, and without the clutch switch and who knows what else it didn't even fire.

Good luck, I will post again whether I find anything.

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Old 07-16-2013, 07:55 AM   #37
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedlineWannabe View Post
Dark-Sorry I haven't logged on for a couple of days. The yellow wire for the start relay on the Ion harness is much smaller gauge than that of the Vue, because on the Ion it only engages a start relay. far2grumpy had helped me with that, and I decided to re-use the original purple and yellow start wires from the Vue harness to carry the current to the solenoid.

As far as the pink wire, can you tell me what circuit it is for? I had a yellow wire left over on the Ion harness that was for circuit IGN1, and I had B10 open on UHFB C2 in the Vue harness that had B10 open, which originally had a pink wire. Hope this helps.

My project is stalled until I figure out how to get the Keyword Serial Data converted to something the BCM can understand. I'm going for help from our electrical/software engineer at work. The other option that I'm considering is putting a BCM from a manual trans vehicle, along with the harness. That requires removing the whole interior and dash, not something I'd look forward to, but it beats driving into my driveway and staring at the vehicle I can't use! I had tried my manual trans ECM on the auto, and without the clutch switch and who knows what else it didn't even fire.

Good luck, I will post again whether I find anything.
I wonder in your case if taking the BCM out of the picture somehow would work.

SO you got the keyword wire going to something? I didn't know what to do with that wire so its going no where for me?

Joe

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Old 07-16-2013, 05:23 PM   #38
dark7622
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Not sure about the yellow wire your talking about. There was a yellow wire from the Neutral safety switch I have going to a relay. The two thick wires in the original wire harness are going to the relay and the yellow wire from the switch is what controls the relay. This way the car can't be started in drive.

But right now I got to figure out why I can't start the car at all.

Like I said I have three unmated wires.

1 Ign pink wire
1 Keyword wire (Readline where did you hook this up to?)
1 Acces power wire

Any ideas guys?

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Old 07-16-2013, 08:30 PM   #39
RedlineWannabe
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2004 VUE 2.2L
2003 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark7622 View Post
Not sure about the yellow wire your talking about. There was a yellow wire from the Neutral safety switch I have going to a relay. The two thick wires in the original wire harness are going to the relay and the yellow wire from the switch is what controls the relay. This way the car can't be started in drive.

But right now I got to figure out why I can't start the car at all.

Like I said I have three unmated wires.

1 Ign pink wire
1 Keyword wire (Readline where did you hook this up to?)
1 Acces power wire

Any ideas guys?
My Ion harness had a yellow wire that needed IGN1 power. The yellow wire you were talking about and took care of with the relay. My Vues don't have the start relay, the Ion does. You wired it with the relay, I wired it as original, having to place the heavier gauge wire into the harness for the neutral safety switch (PNP-Park-Neutral Position)

The pink wire is from the Ion harness end, or the engine end? The Keyword Serial Data line is what I am having trouble with currently. The brown ACC1 wire needs to only have power in Acc mode. If you put power to this wire while the engine is running, the car will shut off when you put it in drive. Not park, reverse, or neutral, but kills instantly in drive.

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Old 07-17-2013, 08:06 AM   #40
dark7622
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Default Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!

HI Readline,

On the accessory power wire, I simply don't have it hooked up at all since I didn't have a wire to mate it with.

I think I'm good as far as the starter goes, I really didn't like the idea of such heavy gaged wires going though a switch, that's why we have relays. So I think I'm good with the setup I have with the extra relay in place.

The pink wire in question is an ign wire and it's coming from the block (fuse block).

I probably need to get a scanner so I can see if the ECM is reporting anything. The engine ran great before this experiment so it's pretty discouraging to have this problem. I expected worse case it didn't shift but not to have it run is a real bummer.

Someone could make some money selling the TCM and wire harness already done for this conversion LOL.

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