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Old 03-04-2012, 07:36 AM   #1
MikeIndiana
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Default My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

My car won't start. A few seconds after I turn the key to run, the security light comes on, the 'service engine soon' light comes on and the little service + wrench light comes on too.

It turns over, but isn't getting any fuel. No fuel pressure. Has over a 1/2 tank of gas in it. Gas gauge shows empty.

Leaving it in run position, for 10 minutes, does not reset the security light and will not start after any amount of time.

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Old 03-04-2012, 10:35 AM   #2
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Factory security does not disable the fuel pump. Did you check for a blown fuel pump fuse? Swapped pump relay with another?

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Old 03-04-2012, 11:09 AM   #3
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Which model car do you have?, L-series or S-series.

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Old 03-04-2012, 09:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

I have an S series.

And the security operates by disabling the fuel pump. Thanks.

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Old 03-04-2012, 09:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

The security reset involves turning the car to the run position 3 times, while waiting at least 10 mins (AND the security light goes OUT) each time, before the car will start again.

Did you recently replace anything or lock the car with the FOB but unlock it with the keys?

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Old 03-05-2012, 12:26 AM   #6
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeIndiana View Post
I have an S series.

And the security operates by disabling the fuel pump. Thanks.
Well, you're mistaken.

From the service manual;

The passlock sensor data supplied to the BCM is in the form of V-codes or voltage codes. When the proper ignition key is turned in the ignition switch, the correct V-code is supplied to the BCM. The BCM responds by sending a serial data password to the engine controller allowing the engine to run.

Under a tamper condition, a specific V-code is supplied to the BCM. The BCM will send a class II message to the PCM disabling the fuel injectors.


No mention anywhere of disabling the fuel pump. I thought the same until I read the service manual.................

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Old 03-05-2012, 04:33 AM   #7
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShawnV View Post
The security reset involves turning the car to the run position 3 times, while waiting at least 10 mins (AND the security light goes OUT) each time, before the car will start again.

Did you recently replace anything or lock the car with the FOB but unlock it with the keys?
No, the waiting 10 minutes thing does not work.

I tested the schrader fuel valve and there is no fuel pressure, I don't hear the fuel pump when I turn the ignition to run.

The daytime running lights come on, when the security lights come on, a second or two after turning the ignition it to 'run'.

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Old 03-05-2012, 04:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Also I rented a OBD II scan tool and plugged it in and just got an error message.


Also, it was recently almost completely out of fuel, and then I had just filled it 3/4's full, about 4 miles from home, it hiccupped when I started it up after filling it up, but then ran til I got home anyways.

Also, the power at the gas station had been out the night before, I wonder if that could have affected the fuel in some way.

I've heard running the car on low fuel, means the fuel pump is not bathed in gas and makes it run hotter, and fail, not sure though.

Last edited by MikeIndiana; 03-05-2012 at 04:58 AM..

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Old 03-05-2012, 05:06 AM   #9
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Well, you're mistaken.

From the service manual;

The passlock sensor data supplied to the BCM is in the form of V-codes or voltage codes. When the proper ignition key is turned in the ignition switch, the correct V-code is supplied to the BCM. The BCM responds by sending a serial data password to the engine controller allowing the engine to run.

Under a tamper condition, a specific V-code is supplied to the BCM. The BCM will send a class II message to the PCM disabling the fuel injectors.


No mention anywhere of disabling the fuel pump. I thought the same until I read the service manual.................
well I bought a digital service manual, from DetroitMotors.com and here is what it says.

Quote:
OPERATION
When mechanical key turns the Passlock(tm) lock cylinder, data is created by a rotating magnet turning past a
stationary Hall effect sensor. This data signal is sent to the BCM. The BCM determines the validity of the data
within a preset time window, then sends a coded password to the PCM, which then allows the fuel injectors to
operate normally.
If data is not read within the preset time window, the Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) system will go into
SHORT TAMPER MODE. During this SHORT TAMPER MODE, the vehicle will not operate for 4 seconds
and SECURITY indicator light will flash. After 3 consecutive failed time window readings, or if wrong data is
read, the VTD will go into LONG TAMPER MODE. During the LONG TAMPER MODE, the fuel injectors
will shut off for 10 minutes and SECURITY indicator light will flash. Vehicle may crank and temporarily start
during tamper modes, but will soon stall due to fuel shut-off.
It says it disables the fuel injectors, but I guess there should still be pressure at the schrader valve, not sure.

It may disable the fuel injectors by disabling the fuel pump, more than one source has said it disables the fuel pump.

From what I gather how this system operates is some sort of secret they keep from the general public. Maybe so the government can remotely disable your car completely. Who really knows, it's possible. They admittedly do it now on newer cars, maybe they've been doing this secretly for a long time.

I can hardly believe this is all just to deter stupid car thieves.

I guess it could be the BCM also, if it's not just a loose wire somewhere.

I checked under the car and there is very little corrosion, the wires all seem in good condition.

I checked some of the wires and got no voltage in the rear fuel pump connector, which according to the Richpin videos, means there's a problem somewhere, but the 'problem' I guess could be in one of the damn computers.

Really miss non-computerized cars right now.

I guess if it's the BCM i gotta buy the part from a dealer and they need to use some special "Tech I" software only some computer expert can use, to program it, so I can start my car.

Is fuel injection really worth THIS?

Last edited by MikeIndiana; 03-05-2012 at 05:20 AM..

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Old 03-05-2012, 05:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODs5GMRI2Q0

this is the fuel pump video, I get no voltage in the first test, but I'm not sure what that really means, so the circuit isn't completing, but I guess that's because of either the passlock, or body control module failure, it could still be lots of things.

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Old 03-05-2012, 06:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

Well, its good to have the wiring diagram for reference as it can help isolate problems. It can be confusing to understand the difference between fuel shut off and injector shut down; as long as security is turned off during starting, the fuel pump should be running. Turning ON ignition is supposed to initiate a 2-second timer from the pcm to run the pump for pressurizing. If the engine isn't started then the pump turns off and waits until the engine is cranked to start up. Not hearing any fuel pump sounds narrows it down some to a fuel issue; pump fuse, pump relay, wiring to pump, pump, and pump ground connection. Using richpin's video and not seeing 12v at ignition ON/RUN still means the list in sequential order beginning with the pump fuse.

Be sure the fuse is good as it supplies uninterrupted 12v power to one of two pump relay contacts, pin 30 or 87, on the relay or socket pins. Some careful familiarity with relay pin outs and their association on the relay socket will allow you to measure for 12 on either relay socket pin 30 or 87. When the relay is powered up at ignition ON time or when the ignition switch is turned to the START position the pcm will power this fuel pump relay and close the contacts, pins 30 and 87, to send 12v to the fuel pump. Carefully probing the relay sockets should show 12v on one of those two pins.

A wire jumper across these two socket pins will send 12v immediately to the fuel pump. All that's left is the wire to the pump (gray wire?), the pump, and pump ground.

Someone else had this same issue in the L-series forum with a loose relay socket pin not making a good connection to the relay. His pump was broken in the tank and needed replacement anyway but 12v was initially not seen at the relay socket until more careful probing revealed a bent pin. A temporary fix resolved the 12v issue and a wire jumper was used to test the replacement pump. Same troubleshooting as you're doing. Same circuit, different model.

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Old 03-05-2012, 07:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

well nevermind,it was a blown PCM fuse, I plucked them out and missed it.

I know now to always test them with the multimeter instead of pulling them out. It's alot harder to tell by looking at them.


I've had this trouble with fuses before, sometimes the are no good and you can't tell by looking at them.

Those richpin videos are awesome though, when you just keep trying different things, it usually leads you at least, somewhere.

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Old 03-05-2012, 08:46 AM   #13
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

I guess the PCMB fuse goes to the fuel pump, so maybe it was because my gas was so low.

It starts to 'hiccup' when the pump gets air I think, maybe causes a surge through the circuit, definitely shouldn't be running it down to empty, damn gas prices make me not want to fill it up.

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Old 03-05-2012, 09:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

The pcm B+ fuse powers the pcm only. If the pcm is dead then no EFI system, period. Its rare for the pcm B+ fuse to blow so its understandable that it was missed. Its always best to keep things simple before going technical. There's a separate pump fuse for the pump.

When there's any possibility of running the pump empty for any reason, refilling with as little as a gallon or two will be more than sufficient to allow the pump to build up pressure. The build up of pressure does two things; supply fuel to the injectors and eliminate any air in the system. When pressure builds above 20-30 psi (approximately) any air in the lines becomes compressed and quickly leaves the moment the engine is started. If a cough is heard on first start up, that may be the only indication of any air in the system as no air will remain as the engine warms up. Any worries about air is quickly dispelled as soon as the engine is started and run. Normal fuel pressure will be anywhere from 45-60 psi, depending on model, high enough to eliminate any air in the lines. No air will ever affect the EFI system as long as a gallon is at the bottom of the tank. Tank construction ensures fuel settles at the bottom where the fuel sock will strain water from fuel while still supplying fuel to the last drop. Most of us never let the tank run completely dry so the fuel pump system will not heat up and croak just because of one or more dry tanks. There will always be some fuel left whether the pump is surrounded in fuel or not. Heat isn't a factor in these pumps. No one has ever proven a pump burning out (new ones, not old ones) from running a tank dry several times. Pumps stop running the moment the engine stops, period. They do not run continuously with the ignition ON.

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Old 03-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

well I guess no two people seem to agree on ANYTHING to do with any specific information about can car. Really is kind of insane.

I bought this electronic version of the factory service manual, from Detroit Motors, only it's NOT the official factory service manual, it's kind of a piece of crap, but someone went to a great extent to write out hundreds of pages of generalized info, and crappy hand drawn pictures.

I looked all over to find the factory service manual for this thing and could not find any clue anywhere.



I just asked the guy at the auto store whether you could mix sythetic oil and regular oil and he made up this BS story about how you should never do that, because it will get thick. He had no idea what he was talking about and I knew it, I just wanted to see what he would say. I KNEW he would pretend like he was an expert, and make something up, which seems to be what ALOT of fools do.


Someone seriously needs to do a psychological study of this phenomena, why men will NEVER just say 'I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION'. They will ALWAYS make up some story to sound like they know something you don't. It's like theology, you know, they will make up stuff they think you won't understand so you will defer to them, as the authority.

Anyways, it sure is maddening how many people will make up elaborate explanations for things about cars when they have absolutely NO IDEA what they are even talking about.

Last edited by MikeIndiana; 03-06-2012 at 02:36 PM..

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Old 03-06-2012, 02:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

well this guy says the PCM B fuse on this other GM car is on the fuel pump circuit, I know there is a fuel pump RELAY, but I assumed there could be another circuit connected, who knows.

http://www.justanswer.com/car/3niqj-...p-service.html


I guess that's a different car, but there was more than one source saying on other cars, the PCMB fuse is on the fuel pump circuit.


Anyways, everything the next person says, always contradicts what the last person said, sort of nuts you know. And when you finally figure it all out for yourself, you realize NONE of them had the slightest idea what they were talking about.

Anyways, there is a groundwire to the PCM also, that is kind of exposed and must anodize or whatever alot, because it corrodes easy, and I noticed in the pervious owner's service records they charged someone $40 to clean it, it took a minute to clean, scrubbed it with some corrosion gunk.

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Old 03-06-2012, 03:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

While its all good and nice to Google for answers, if you don't find specific answers to technical questions from Saturnfans then you're not getting exact answers, period. You can research as much as you'd like but, personally, I doubt you'll receive correct and free answers anywhere else other than here. While not perfect, even Saturn techs became members here to round out the membership. Some have even remarked that Saturn was monitoring this site for information. With freedom on the 'net and pirated info, sharing technical info not found anywhere (wire colors, pin outs, etc.) but here is second to none. The only other place to find specific info would be either a paid subscription to alldata or paying GM. The last place for free info would be your local library with free access to alldata. This is service manual info only, no shared info from the wealth of experiences shared here along with solutions.

Almost any question has already been covered if researched here carefully. The only problem is the way question are asked or symptoms described that makes it impossible to catalog for easy researching.

Any specific pin outs or wire color I relate to will be from the service manual as reference. The same for the pcm and why I state the fuel pump is powered directly from a fused 12v line and the relay is commanded ON/OFF by the pcm. The pcm commands the pump relay that turns on the pump.

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Old 03-06-2012, 09:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

I mean, is it just me, or does every question you ask, get all these responses that are like, 10 pages long, and they never answer one single aspect of the question you are asking.

I don't mean you, I mean, most people on the internet are like this. They will prattle like children, page after page, and can't focus on the point of the matter, they will never just directly answer the question, in a concise, abbreviate manner, the way a man would.

It's like they wanna unload every piece of worthless knowledge they've ever acquired, to show you how smart they are, even though they don't have the slightest clue what the answer to your specific question is.


You can ask a simple 'yes or no 'question and there's always someone who writes out a 10 page response and NEVER answers the question.

The internet is great, don't get me wrong, it's just you gotta read 30 or 40 pages of nonsense anytime you wanna find anything, and by that time you have no idea if what you are reading is accurate or not.

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Old 03-06-2012, 09:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

It depends. Some want two way discussions with a gazillion posts of back and forth. Others get all their info in a few posts.

Others just obfuscate......................................... ..

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Old 03-06-2012, 09:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: My Saturn 2000 won't start. Security Light, Gas gauge not working.

I bought the Chilton, and the Haynes repair manuals for the Saturn 2000 and they are both exactly the same, which is very odd.

I bought the service manuals for my old honda, and they were great, I got the factory service manual for $20, and it was awesome, this factory service manual for the Saturn is pathetic, I couldn't change the tire if I read this thing.

It's trouble shooting chart is full of things like,

Problem
Fuel filter clogged

Solution
Change fuel filter.

The repair literature for this Car is so scarce and hard to find.

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