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Old 04-18-2012, 07:52 PM   #61
OldNuc
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

You can use stranded 14gs with a 20 amp inline fuse and tap in at the main power feed to the UHJB. That will work just fine.

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Old 04-19-2012, 07:58 AM   #62
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Yep I'm going to do that , and also do that to power an aftermarket CD deck.
Remember the in line fuse though.

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:04 AM   #63
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

After considerable experience with three different "F5" failures on the same 1999 Saturn SL-2, I totally disagree that Pin "F5" has anything to do with the failures. For more information see:

Well, I tried to provide a link, but seems I'm not allowed to post URLs until I've made 15 or more posts to this forum. That's not likely to happen anytime soon. Since I really feel that the information at that URL will be beneficial to Saturn users, here's what you can do:

1. Go to wordpress dot com.
2. Find my blog: thosbryant dot wordpress dot com
3. Take a look at the post on Saturn Fuse Box Repair (1998-1999)

For reasons that are explained there, Pin "F5" is referred to therein as "A5".

The heating and melting around Pin "F5" is a red herring; it has nothing whatsoever to do with the real problem. It is neither a cause nor a symptom of the real problem.

I am not seeking business.
I don't want to fix any more of these things.
I am posting this solely because I want to be helpful.

Tom Bryant

Last edited by Tom Bryant; 01-05-2014 at 10:10 AM.. Reason: Corrected typos.

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:30 AM   #64
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

http://thosbryant.wordpress.com/2014...box-1998-1999/

However, we have a long history of awesome write-ups such as yours simply disappearing.

...
The proper way to fix a S-Series automatic is to replace it with a 5spd O:)

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Old 01-05-2014, 10:39 AM   #65
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Yes, you can take it all apart and replace the inadequate internal wiring which will successfully move the point of failure. This is not a repair task that is easily performed for those with only basic electrical knowledge.

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Old 01-05-2014, 01:39 PM   #66
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

If you wiggle the F-5 pin and things change then that is where you start to look. If the panel is burned the easy fix is a good JY replacement. Increasing wire size does not fix the problem but it will move the physical location of the next failure.

The I/P Panel is unique to these years alone and does not swap between years/groups of years.
91 all
92-94 all
95 all
96 all
97 all
98-99 all
00 all
01-02 all

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Old 01-05-2014, 04:21 PM   #67
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

I have just finished adding information to my blog that tells you how you can easily determine whether or not Pin F5 is involved in whatever failure you might be experiencing. In a nutshell: If your cigarette lighter works, then Pin F5 is not your problem. For detailed information, see my blog:

thosbryant dot wordpress dot com

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Old 01-05-2014, 05:41 PM   #68
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

As I said above, and to clarify, if the failure is internal and not at one of the several rear power connections then the best approach for the average person is to just replace the panel.

You are not making some huge discovery or revelation here as almost all of the automotive fuse/distribution panels are internally constructed an wired in a similar manner.

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:06 PM   #69
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Not claiming to be making a huge discovery.

As for replacing the fuse panel, that would be simple.... except... they aren't available. Sheesh!

Don't be a grump!

Tom

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:48 PM   #70
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

They are available the same place you find most of the other unique to Saturn parts, the Junk Yard. There are plenty of them that are not burned up from overload.

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Old 01-06-2014, 05:11 AM   #71
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

As I clearly stated in my blog post (which you apparently didn't take the time to read with any amount of care) they are not available new. Believe me, we tried to get a new one.

Of course, any sane person would prefer to buy a new one, but, as you know, they're not available.

You state the obvious, of course we know they're available from the junk yard. And once again, I clearly stated that in my post. In fact, we bought two from junkyards, and both of them had, or quickly developed, the same problem our original one had.

Given the history of these fuse boxes, it seems rather fruitless to go the junkyard approach. Waste of time, money, energy, ambition, and resources. We needed a fix that my wife could drive and not get stranded when the next high-mileage fuse box failed. I devised such a fix.

So, I've posted, in my blog, one way to fix the problem. Fix it reliably, and fix it permanently. You can take the advice or you can leave it. Doesn't matter to me; I certainly have nothing to gain, or lose, either way.

Once again: As a quick test, if your cigarette lighter works, then your problem is definitely not "F5".

The reverse is not necessarily true; that is, a failure of the cigarette lighter does not necessarily mean that F5 is bad. For precise information, describing exactly how (and why) you can make this determination with certainty, see the blog posting referenced previously.

It's much better to know than to guess, and my blog post gives you enough information to know whether or not your particular F5 is bad.


Tom Bryant

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Old 01-06-2014, 06:58 AM   #72
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Good write up Tom. Soldering all the connectors and making the box better should be a much better solution as compared to trying to tighten connections and replace when it fails.

Being our car is year specific, I think I'm going to do an inspection when I have time and move some load before it becomes a problem. With a large population as compared to local junkyards the chances of finding a '95 might be tough. But if I run across one it would be worth picking up a spare for the proper long term fix.


As for the negativity, don't worry about it as it's common. It often contradicts other posts by the same person.

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Old 01-06-2014, 07:52 AM   #73
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

-Yes, I did read it, all of it.
-Some are still available in dealer stock but far from low cost.
-Your repair technique is not something that the average individual can deal with as it is beyond the average persons ability to recover from a mistake.
-If you had bothered to search the board thoroughly you would find that here are very few internal connection failures and the majority are at the main non-swithed power connection.
-I also read the SU rebuild post.
-Would you like to make some more assumptions, and are you going to be a regular poster to clean up the mess that casual separating of these panels causes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bryant View Post
As I clearly stated in my blog post (which you apparently didn't take the time to read with any amount of care) they are not available new. Believe me, we tried to get a new one.

Of course, any sane person would prefer to buy a new one, but, as you know, they're not available.

You state the obvious, of course we know they're available from the junk yard. And once again, I clearly stated that in my post. In fact, we bought two from junkyards, and both of them had, or quickly developed, the same problem our original one had.

Given the history of these fuse boxes, it seems rather fruitless to go the junkyard approach. Waste of time, money, energy, ambition, and resources. We needed a fix that my wife could drive and not get stranded when the next high-mileage fuse box failed. I devised such a fix.

So, I've posted, in my blog, one way to fix the problem. Fix it reliably, and fix it permanently. You can take the advice or you can leave it. Doesn't matter to me; I certainly have nothing to gain, or lose, either way.

Once again: As a quick test, if your cigarette lighter works, then your problem is definitely not "F5".

The reverse is not necessarily true; that is, a failure of the cigarette lighter does not necessarily mean that F5 is bad. For precise information, describing exactly how (and why) you can make this determination with certainty, see the blog posting referenced previously.

It's much better to know than to guess, and my blog post gives you enough information to know whether or not your particular F5 is bad.


Tom Bryant

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Old 01-06-2014, 11:34 AM   #74
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Agreed, my repair technique is not for the average person.

Not being a Saturn person, I'm not particularly interested in searching the entire website; I would do that only if there were some reason for me to do so, and there clearly is not.

And, I have not made any assumptions about what was wrong with my *three* fuse boxes. I know for certain that it was not F5, not in any one of the three cases.

No, I am not going to become a regular poster. I believe in posting only when I have something useful to say.

I totally disagree that I have left any mess to be cleaned up. But feel free to clean up, for me, whatever mess you might perceive.

As for casual separating of these panels, I certainly didn't do it casually, and I made it very plain in my post that anyone doing it had better be extremely careful.

I probably shall not return to this site. As you should know by now, I am a Volvo person, definitely not a Saturn lover. I posted here only to help those who could benefit.

I do believe, however, that my information will be very helpful to those who will take the time to check their fuse box and determine whether or not their F5 is working; it certainly tells them *exactly* how to do that.

And, the tests can be made without any dis-assembly of the fuse box. No need to remove the center console, no need to remove any of the connectors from the back of the fuse box.

In a nutshell:
1. If your cigarette lighter works, F5 is not bad.
2. If your cigarette lighter doesn't work, F5 may or may not be bad, and further testing will be required. Details are in my blog post.

Those additional tests can also be made from the front of the fuse box, without dis-assembling anything other than removing a few fuses and/or a relay. It is better to make these tests from the front, rather than to attack the back to get at F5 because that allows whatever state F5 is in to remain undisturbed until such time as you have determined that state, i.e., good or bad.

There are two types of failures: F5 and something inside the fuse box. One needs to determine which class of failure they've suffered.

If their F5 is not working, then my information will not be of any further use to them, at least until such time as they have fixed their F5 problem.

But, if the tests that I describe in detail in my blog post prove that their F5 *is* working, then they will know better than to try to "fix" it. In such cases, they will have to either replace their fuse box or repair it. Their choice.

Tom Bryant

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Old 01-06-2014, 02:13 PM   #75
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

If you had searched or posted a question then I would be willing to bet that the exact point of circuit failure would have been identified and the 2 or 3 possible repair methods explained. This has been done several times in the past. Most but not all of the I/P Panel failures have been titled F-5 something or it is mentioned in a post. Keep in mind that F-5 only pertains to the IP BAT feed for the gen-2 cars and is a different terminal with different failure symptoms in the gen-1 and gen-3 cars. Saturn recognized a very high failure rate with the F-5 circuit in the Gen-2 as the use of aftermarket electronics increased and redesigned the continuous power distribution system in the gen-3 panel so they do not fail as often.

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Old 01-07-2014, 04:11 PM   #76
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

We did search this site, and this thread, thoroughly, before we proceeded with troubleshooting, and fixing, this problem. It proved to not be helpful, because, well, the problem, as I have repeatedly stated, was *not* F5. Not in any of our three failures.

Although I do (almost) all my own repairs on my Volvos, I don't enjoy working on my wife's Saturn, so after my initial attempts failed, I had the car towed to a professional mechanic and let him deal with it. Ultimately, he gave up on the car, and threw the job back into my lap.

After this thread, and this site, proved to not be helpful, my mechanic, who runs a 2-bay automotive repair shop, full time, and spent numerous hours trying to find this problem, suggested that we try the services of justanswer dot com. You can see the thread that developed there by going to:

www dot justanswer dot com/saturn/7f35n-saturn-sl-2-1999-saturn-sl-2-suddenly-died-last-week dot html

I apologize for having to insert a bunch of "dot"s into the link, but I'm still not able to post URLs, so I must do what I can do.

Although that "justanswer" query is listed as "Resolved", we only *thought* it was resolved at the time. It kept coming back, until we finally fixed the problem *my* way.

Although we were not able to identify the *exact* location of our bad connection, we were able to prove *definitively* that our specific problem was not F5, not in any of the three fuse boxes involved.

We were also able to prove, at least to my complete satisfaction, that the problem resided somewhere within the confines of that abominable fuse box assembly.

You have previously stated "almost all of the automotive fuse/distribution panels are internally constructed an (sic) wired in a similar manner."

I suspect that statement is not very accurate. I have worked on several fuse boxes, mostly European, and this is the first time I ever encountered a fuse box with such construction. Not even remotely similar. Most vehicles that I work on are Volvos, so I'm not all that familiar with 'Merican cars these days, but I'd wager that the particular design in the Saturn is pretty much unique to General Motors vehicles. Wouldn't wager a lot, though.

Wiggling the F5 connection, as you have suggested, is not, in my opinion, a good way to troubleshoot this problem. Wiggling F5 will, unavoidably, also wiggle connections inside the fuse box. That can cause the real bad connection to temporarily make contact, masking the true location of the problem.

However, if one simply checks to see if the cigarette lighter works, and if it does, then that will prove, definitively, that F5 is not the problem. It's best to make tests that do not alter the status of the system. Checking by wiggling F5 does alter the status; checking the cigarette lighter does not. It's a far more definitive test for a bad F5 connection. Not quite infallible, however, as a non-working cigarette lighter does not quite prove that F5 is bad.

A comment for "Signmaster":

Thanks for your comments. Somehow, I missed your post earlier, probably because I only checked the most recent reply, which was later than yours.

Not to fear, I don't worry about the negativity; I'm a pretty big boy who's been around a long time. Yes, it's clearly there, but some people just can't help being negative.

You can see that I'm a *big* boy, and also that I've been around a *long* time, if you check out the photos of my new garage on my blog site. That's me installing the overhead I-beam for the trolley and hoist.

I mostly frequent the Volvo realm. We have a few characters there, and one in particular, who has to comment on every post, whether he has anything constructive to say or not. It comes with the territory. It has been my observation that the quality of a person's posts is often inversely correlated with the quantity.

It would be interesting to know how many people who *thought* they had an F5 problem were able to fix that problem by just monkeying with the external contacts and wiring, and how many of them ultimately had to replace their fuse box before the problem went away. I suspect that the answer might surprise some of you.

My guess is that many of them had to replace the fuse box, but I'll not hazard a guess as to the percentage, at least not publicly... I do have my own opinion, however.

Having had three of these fuse boxes apart, and after getting a good, close look at the internal construction, I can see no way that an F5-type failure could occur *inside* the fuse box. I believe that F5 failures are either outside the fuse box (that is, at the connector or the wire) or it's not an F5 failure.

I also wonder how many fuse boxes were replaced while the cigarette lighter still worked... Someone should start keeping track of a few statistics here. It's not going to be me... because I'm a Volvo person.

And now, I really must curb my posting here, because at this time I really have nothing more to say that I think might be productive. So, it's back to Volvo land I go. Hie ho!

Tom Bryant

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Old 01-07-2014, 05:04 PM   #77
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

As I said above, you should have asked and it appears your search foo is a bit out of date. Internal failure are usually addressed by panel replacement as they are not real common. The vast majority are a severely overloaded and overheated IP BAT power-in connection located in the 68 pin plug. The cost of a good used panel is low enough that it is not worth the owners time and aggravation to rebuild severely heat damaged components. This is usually because the owner lacks the tools ands skills to do the work required, it is not a simple job even with directions.

You have yet to explain why your panel repeatedly failed and that would be the most useful part of this long thread.
There are precious few automotive repair shops including the Official Dealer shops than can do much more than follow a trouble tree and replace very expensive parts. The fact that the local shop gave up is far from surprising as it is the usual result as they are good mechanics and not electronics wizards.

Before you ask I have had these panels(both I/P and UHJB) apart to install custom features that I wanted to integrate into the system. This is along with all the others I have taken apart to rewire or add features into.

I have been around automobiles and electronics for a very long time and I can recognize a BSer from quite a distance.

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Old 01-07-2014, 05:29 PM   #78
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Looks to me as you've just validated my point. :-)

Tom

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Old 01-07-2014, 05:32 PM   #79
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Actually you have validated mine, BS detector is pegged out. Go back to Volvos.

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Old 01-07-2014, 11:51 PM   #80
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bryant View Post
A comment for "Signmaster":

Thanks for your comments. Somehow, I missed your post earlier, probably because I only checked the most recent reply, which was later than yours.

Not to fear, I don't worry about the negativity; I'm a pretty big boy who's been around a long time. Yes, it's clearly there, but some people just can't help being negative.

You can see that I'm a *big* boy, and also that I've been around a *long* time, if you check out the photos of my new garage on my blog site. That's me installing the overhead I-beam for the trolley and hoist.

I mostly frequent the Volvo realm. We have a few characters there, and one in particular, who has to comment on every post, whether he has anything constructive to say or not. It comes with the territory. It has been my observation that the quality of a person's posts is often inversely correlated with the quantity.

It would be interesting to know how many people who *thought* they had an F5 problem were able to fix that problem by just monkeying with the external contacts and wiring, and how many of them ultimately had to replace their fuse box before the problem went away. I suspect that the answer might surprise some of you.

My guess is that many of them had to replace the fuse box, but I'll not hazard a guess as to the percentage, at least not publicly... I do have my own opinion, however.

Having had three of these fuse boxes apart, and after getting a good, close look at the internal construction, I can see no way that an F5-type failure could occur *inside* the fuse box. I believe that F5 failures are either outside the fuse box (that is, at the connector or the wire) or it's not an F5 failure.

I also wonder how many fuse boxes were replaced while the cigarette lighter still worked... Someone should start keeping track of a few statistics here. It's not going to be me... because I'm a Volvo person.

And now, I really must curb my posting here, because at this time I really have nothing more to say that I think might be productive. So, it's back to Volvo land I go. Hie ho!

Tom Bryant

I did check out the photos, great shop. I suspect the land alone to do that in this area would run me several hundred thousand dollars.... I can't see it in the near future.

I suspect you're on to something with failures going without repair, as quite a few have chased ghosts with problems similar to yours and never found a solution. As for the failure being other than at the box, I completely agree. The heat causing the usual F5 type failure talked about often leads to the crappy connections, and the obvious solution is to make a better connection.

But then again us mere mortals can't have a solution can we? It also seems that several that have repaired the more common problem have done so this way, against the recommendations and scare tactics of someone who claims to have all the solutions.

I'm sure your find and the solution will come in handy to a number of people as long as they don't ignore facts and get confused by misinformation. So thanks again, it will be of use to others. And as you can see, your facts have offended at least one. But it's said that a fragile ego is easily bruised, so that is really no surprise.

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