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Old 01-11-2012, 12:20 PM   #21
TrotFox
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

I'm glad I saw this. It cinches the argument going on in my head about whether I should pull power from the harness or run a new ground + power wire to the frame/batt. This car will only have a nominal stereo when I finish with it but to me that means most of the speaker power will be coming from the head unit!

The subs will likely get their own amp, of course...

Oldnuc, Do you recommend re-wiring the cig lighter if I plan to use it for phone charging on a reasonably frequent basis (mostly on long trips while using phone for music/GPS [read: long runs of charging?])

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Old 01-11-2012, 01:19 PM   #22
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

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Originally Posted by TrotFox View Post
Oldnuc, Do you recommend re-wiring the cig lighter if I plan to use it for phone charging on a reasonably frequent basis (mostly on long trips while using phone for music/GPS [read: long runs of charging?])
OldNuc warns against usijng the cigarette ligher on these cars for chargers every chance he gets

There is a decent How To (was in the Mods forum but may have been moved to the How To Library), started by adventureoflink

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Old 01-11-2012, 02:48 PM   #23
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Find the How-To thread and put it together correctly. You can run a low power head unit off the normal circuits if you keep the sound level down, but it is really not recommended.

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Old 01-11-2012, 08:55 PM   #24
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Find the How-To thread and put it together correctly. You can run a low power head unit off the normal circuits if you keep the sound level down, but it is really not recommended.
OK Rich, what else is running off the F-5?

(By now we know the fuel pump and the default power adaptor run off it (unless you re-wire it as we're getting TrotFox to do)...)

and yes Chaos, I had Charlie move both my 12v power adaptor thread and the relay thread into the how-to library; the 12v power adaptor thread is here: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=174707 (keep in mind that to re-wire the stock power adaptor you'll have to run the power lead behind the brake pedal bracket as well as the accelerator bracket (and possibly in or above the clutch bracket? ); do give your pedals several test drives before going further into the wiring process to avoid potential filleting, pinching, etc. you can tap a ground easy by putting it on the black bolt the I/P fuse panel bolts to on the brown-ish looking support bar.)

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Last edited by adventureoflink; 01-11-2012 at 09:00 PM..

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Old 01-11-2012, 10:37 PM   #25
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Everything that works inside the car when the key is off.
Chime, Rear defogger control, seatbelt telltail, Dome Lamp, Cargo/trunk lamp, MapLights, Door Lock Switches-actuators, RKE, Radio, power mirror, Fuel pump, Transmission solenoids, and Lighter.

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Old 01-12-2012, 12:49 AM   #26
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Everything that works inside the car when the key is off.
Chime, Rear defogger control, seatbelt telltail, Dome Lamp, Cargo/trunk lamp, MapLights, Door Lock Switches-actuators, RKE, Radio, power mirror, Fuel pump, Transmission solenoids, and Lighter.
Jesus Christ can we say overload...

Half of that seems pretty simple to move to its own circuit, though. No idea if I'd like the idea of a billion and one extra lines fed off the UHJB+ bolt, bad enough I got two on mine as/is, with a third on the way for the re-wire of the stock power adaptor...

(Say Rich, I got an idea.. some of the stuff (like the trunk lamp and prolly the chime) is most effective when the engine is off right... what if you fed the power to that off pin 87a of a relay? assuming of course said relay is rigged to run with the key in ACC or RUN )

EDIT: Wait a minute.. since when does the radio run regardless of key position? I thought the radio was a ACC/RUN thing.. also I thought transaxle selenoids would be more effective with the engine, I dunno, turned on and running? not to mention the rear defogger also runs with the key in ACC/RUN IIRC as well.

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Last edited by adventureoflink; 01-12-2012 at 12:59 AM..

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Old 01-12-2012, 01:01 AM   #27
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Those are all intermittent loads except the fuel pump and radio which in the OEM is just memory power. The internal wiring will tolerate probably 15 amps continuous and the fuel pump is 5 to 8 of those. It is the chargers and higher power head units that get you up to the cook point. How often you use some of these high current intermittent loads has a bearing also. Electric windows and doors are a high load. It would be possible to split it apart but not much fun to do.

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Old 01-12-2012, 01:05 AM   #28
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Those are all intermittent loads except the fuel pump and radio which in the OEM is just memory power. The internal wiring will tolerate probably 15 amps continuous and the fuel pump is 5 to 8 of those. It is the chargers and higher power head units that get you up to the cook point. How often you use some of these high current intermittent loads has a bearing also. Electric windows and doors are a high load. It would be possible to split it apart but not much fun to do.
Gotcha. Yeah, I can see how some of it would be not fun -- to get to the maplight wiring, don't you have to remove the headliner? and I'm personally getting sick of door panels...

and if you have a high-power head unit, how would it be possible to move it off the F-5 terminal, while still retaining the ability to still run in ACC/RUN?

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Old 01-12-2012, 01:19 AM   #29
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Yes, this malady attacks the gen-3 cars at F-2 as well. Gen-1 is F-6 and 95 may be an oddball and same as gen-2, F-5.
I got to look into that TSB that was posted earlier on in this thread. it DOES indeed affect the 1995 model year as well. no idea why gen-3 or even gen-1 isn't in the TSB...

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/ba..._014448_f5.pdf

also if there's a richpin video on removing the I/P block more efficiently than what Nick did, it'd be nice... I remember it being a pain when I did my relay hacking thing

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Old 01-12-2012, 01:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

It is a pain and the FSM has clear directions on how to do it. The Gen-3 has failed and also the Gen-1. Both of those were from either overloading through the radio circuit or using the lighter to power outboard electronics. Those GPS units are killers as well as DVD players. Saturn electrical systems were never designed for the present day collection of electronic gadgets. Some of the newer cars are up to the task but I suspect that they will prove inadequate in a couple of years.

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Old 01-12-2012, 01:32 AM   #31
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
It is a pain and the FSM has clear directions on how to do it. The Gen-3 has failed and also the Gen-1. Both of those were from either overloading through the radio circuit or using the lighter to power outboard electronics. Those GPS units are killers as well as DVD players. Saturn electrical systems were never designed for the present day collection of electronic gadgets. Some of the newer cars are up to the task but I suspect that they will prove inadequate in a couple of years.
figures.. my relay project would be PERFECT for a roof top DVD player.. just sayin'

Still, how do you move the radio off the F-5 (or equivalent for Gen-1 and 3)?

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Old 01-14-2012, 05:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Oldnuc I feel like I'm getting mixed information now. At one point the problem was said to be that the pin needed re-sprung because it ends up with a gap between it and the F5 pin, which soldering directly to the pin would solve. If it is strictly too much power all the time then no it wont fix it.
Regardless because the original information I went off was that the fix was to re-spring the wires piece for a better connection we soldered the connection. Here is what we did and it is working currently. Will post back if it fails at any other time.


NOTE - it has been pointed out that this may not be a viable solution for multiple reasons to solving the F5 problem. This is only the path I have taken to attempt to fix what I believed to be the problem.

Because we did not have wire guage thick enough to match the power wire running into the F5 pin, we doubled up a slightly smaller gauge wire and ran both to the pin, then the other ends we spliced to the original wire attached at F5.

This is the doubled wire soldered to the F5 pin. We used small needle nose to mar the pins surface enough for solder to bind.


Here you can see that we fed the new wires through the F5 port on the plug. Because the wires run through the port as opposed to being attached inside it like the original wire was, we had to trim the blue security piece in the plug a little to make it fit.


This is where we spliced our new wires to the original power wire running to the F5. We soldered them all together, wrapped in electrical tape, and things are running beautifully.


It has been pointed out that my original post and pictures is way more taking the console apart than necessary which is true, I did it so I could figure out where everything was and how it attached. In order to take out any of the pieces we needed access to we were able to do it by removing the two velcroe'd panels on either side (IPJB covers?)

This might get a lot of grief about soldering for a fix but as mentioned currently the car is not experiencing the problems that it originally had. If this changes I'll make sure to update the thread as such. If nothing else hopefully what I did will have some knowledge for someone else.

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Old 01-14-2012, 05:48 PM   #33
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

If the connector shell is burned up and the I/P panel is also there is not much to loose by trying it. It is not the best initial fix approach though unless there is extensive physical damage as you had.

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Old 01-14-2012, 07:25 PM   #34
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Just curious, but what's the amperage rating on each of those pins and connectors? Just because you have thicker (and double, in this case) wire doesn't mean the connector will take the bigger load, as you can see by it melting the shell.

I still think you really should take off some of the load individually (eg: stock power adaptor, map lights, dome lights, radio power, rear window defogger, trunk lights, etc) and put it all on its own big honkin' line. Of course I'd personally make the radio lead run off the relay, though.

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DOB: 3/19/97
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

anyone know if there is a matrix printed in an FSM somewhere telling what accessory or fuse location is powered from each F- circuit?

i.e. F2 = radio, lighter, dome light ....
F5 = lighter, brake lights, windows , etc ....

...
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:42 AM   #36
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Yes there is but it is not quite that clear. Each connector pin is identified as to function. You have to pull up the drawing to get the rest of it.

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Old 01-15-2012, 12:21 PM   #37
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

in my '95 SC2 the wires to my lighter have a short to ground, but every other accessory in the car works, radio, locks, windows, etc ... kinda weird, just have to backprobe it one of these days.

good thing i have the FSMs for that year.

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Old 01-15-2012, 01:08 PM   #38
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

The lighter housing/socket has failed. This is not an unusual failure if the lighter gets any use at all. The insulator around the center pin, which is +12v fails ant goes to ground on the grounded shell.

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Old 01-17-2012, 02:58 PM   #39
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventureoflink View Post
and if you have a high-power head unit, how would it be possible to move it off the F-5 terminal, while still retaining the ability to still run in ACC/RUN?
Unfortunately, the last time I really messed with stereos was before most of these cars were made, but iirc, there are two power leads to the head unit (red and yellow?), one which kept continuous power and one that kicked on the unit when the car turned on. Frankly I don't know which supplied the "power" to the unit, but presumably the red, continuous lead. It seems that you could reroute this wire from the harness and run it to the battery. You would retain on/off control with the key, yet main power would not be drawing from the F5.

Overall, it seems that it would be best to run an amplified system using low-power RCA outputs for signal and volume power routed from the battery to the amplifiers. Even if you still ran the front speakers from the unit, you would be dramatically cutting power draw from the F5 by outputting less than half the power than normal from the head unit.

Maybe create a radio junction block to make routing to the radio and the amplifiers easier, as well as having expandability.

Leaving the speakers factory will help, because iirc, they are 10-12 ohms and most aftermarkets run 4 ohms, which will increase your current draw (V=IR). Focus on sound quality through a EQ or other and you can compensate for the adequate sound quality of the factory speakers. For audiophiles, you likely have the money and motivation to properly modify the system already, so it won't matter.

"Honey, I REALLY need that new amplifier so that I won't melt my car!"

...
Thanks! David

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2000 SL 5-Speed 214k miles; Silver

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Old 01-17-2012, 06:29 PM   #40
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Default Re: Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

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Originally Posted by dbetz View Post
Unfortunately, the last time I really messed with stereos was before most of these cars were made, but iirc, there are two power leads to the head unit (red and yellow?), one which kept continuous power and one that kicked on the unit when the car turned on. Frankly I don't know which supplied the "power" to the unit, but presumably the red, continuous lead. It seems that you could reroute this wire from the harness and run it to the battery. You would retain on/off control with the key, yet main power would not be drawing from the F5.
Yeah, red would have to be continuous, since yellow is for the ACC/RUN control (I know, since mattelderca also offered that as an option for my relay hack-in project)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbetz View Post
Overall, it seems that it would be best to run an amplified system using low-power RCA outputs for signal and volume power routed from the battery to the amplifiers. Even if you still ran the front speakers from the unit, you would be dramatically cutting power draw from the F5 by outputting less than half the power than normal from the head unit.
I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbetz View Post
Maybe create a radio junction block to make routing to the radio and the amplifiers easier, as well as having expandability.
routing it off a relay is fine too

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbetz View Post
"Honey, I REALLY need that new amplifier so that I won't melt my car!"
hahahahahaha

Thanks dbetz

...
97 SL2
DOB: 3/19/97
Date Obtained: 5/30/07
Status: Alive, 1/2 exhaust

2004 Merc G.Marquis GS
DOB: 2/4/04
Date Obtained: 7/6/12
Status: Alive, no heat

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