Fixing the F5 Issue (No power in fusebox to chime, dome light, fuel pump)

[nick.evans]

1999 Saturn SC1
130,000 Miles

Have been doing a lot of research on an issue that has plagued me for a while now. My fuel pump stopped working and after testing the pump and finding it was receiving no power, the lines were traced to the Instrument Panel Junction Block (IPJB). Knowing the source of the issue gave me better search options and led me here to this site where many other Saturn owners have had the exact same issue, all diagnosed as an F5 issue (F5 being the connection point where power is sent to a particular series of fuses and relays including the Chime, Dome Light, and Fuel Pump). I took apart the console inside to access my IPJB and examined the F5. I found the F5, took pictures so others know what they're looking for, but unfortunately I do not know how to fix the problem. One user suggested re-springing the F5 but I honestly don't know what that means. I'm hoping this thread can serve as a place for all users to suggest how they fix their F5 problems.

The Console Torn Apart



The right side of the IPJB

(The Fuse Box is held on with tabs, slide a screw driver under the metal part in the red box to detach the tab... slide it slowly to avoid breaking anything. NOTE: It is not necessary to remove the fuse box entirely, but if you wanted to, or if it helps you gain better access at the F5 pin that's what holds it on.)

The Backside of the Fuse Panel we care about (When facing the backside of the fuses there are 3 panels, this panel is nearest to the engine, or the farthest left when facing the wires. The panel is removed by loosening the bolt in the middle of it. The bolt does not remove, loosen till it spins freely and then wiggle the panel/plug as a whole to pull off.)


The fuse Panel contains tiny letters and numbers, this is how we find which is the F5, or use the above diagram.
The Large gauge red wire that runs to the F5 supplies the power to the Chime, Dome Light, and Fuel Pump (possibly others?)

The port side of the fuse panel


The F5 Pin shows signs signs of problems around it.


Several suggestions to fix include:
Using a scotch pad to clean up pin and connectors.
Re-springing the connector (shown in the 4th picture, the port side of the panel). I don't know exactly what this means.

Cleaning the connectors has at least got my car running again for the time being, but a more permanent solution is still sought. Any and all suggestions and/or critiques are welcome and appreciated.

[mattelderca]

I know how I myself would fix this, but others may disagree.
Remove the female terminal from the F5 cavity, you can use a thin stiff wire or a bobby pin for this. There is a slot on the bottom of the connector cavity, insert the pin and it should release the connector from the body.
Pull the wire completely out of the body.
I would then solder a short piece of 12 gauge T90 onto male F5 tab, ensuring the wire will line up with the hole in the female body. It should be the bottom of the tab going by your pics. If needed, the hole in the body could be enlarged, gently by drilling it to round it out.
Reassemble the bodies with the new wire sticking out the back of the body.
You can then solder the new wire to the to old red (pink) F5 wire.
Easy fix, YMMV.

[madpogue]

Thanks to the annotated photos, this opening post should DEF become a thread in the How-To Library.

[nick.evans]

It'd bring me a certain level of nerdy joy to be referenced in a how-to

As for mattelderca's suggestion, I actually like that idea. So solder the wire directly to the F5 pin, and feed it back through the former port of the F5 on the panel, and tie/solder that to the original F5 red wire? If this is correct, is 12g wire the right size? I would hate to use anything that restricts power to those items or worse send them too much power! It seems that this would actually be a very ideal fix too as the problem supposedly comes from the F5 being loose and causing the power to have to gap between port and pin.

[mattelderca]

Originally Posted by nick.evans

It'd bring me a certain level of nerdy joy to be referenced in a how-to

As for mattelderca's suggestion, I actually like that idea. So solder the wire directly to the F5 pin, and feed it back through the former port of the F5 on the panel, and tie/solder that to the original F5 red wire? If this is correct, is 12g wire the right size? I would hate to use anything that restricts power to those items or worse send them too much power! It seems that this would actually be a very ideal fix too as the problem supposedly comes from the F5 being loose and causing the power to have to gap between port and pin.

12 gauge should be fine, 10 would be too big and I doubt the original harness is 10 anyway. I mentioned T90, as it is a nylon insulation that is thin enough to fit through the body. Clean the male terminal with some sandpaper before trying to solder it, and use a high heat gun so you won't have to keep the heat on the joint long. The faster you get the joint to flow solder the better. I prefer to tin (pre solder) each piece before joining them.

Alternatively, if the female is not in bad condition, one could clean and tighten it and reinstall. But with that much prolonged heat, the connector would have lost much of it's original spring.

I guess you could always salvage a connector from a donor car. But there is alot of work getting to it just to salvage the donor.

Yes, they are great pics as well.

[nick.evans]

Thank you for that idea on fixing the issue. I am reluctant to tinker with it while it is working, however I also will regret waiting till it fails again.

Since the panel seems to just slip each port over a corresponding pin, there should be no real difference in how those fuses and relays receive power correct? It would just ensure a steady connection with no gaping (provided the soldering is done correctly).

I will probably get back at the console to check the gauge of wire as someone had mentioned that they were having a difficult time identifying the proper gauge on theirs. Provided I can size it appropriately I will probably undertake this project over the weekend. If and when I do I'll update the OP with pictures on the fix, the difficulty, and how things turn out.

[bracketeer]

I have also just came across this problem. My car left me stranded at work last night. Thankfully I found this site with pictures. I reached in and wiggled the wire and everything lit up. Car started and I made it home but car was idling at 3000 rpm. Tried to wiggle wire again and burnt my fingers. The connector can be purchased for $7.05, Female block $131.00, Fuse block (the one that melted) $423.25. I'm going to fix it myself. The direct solder idea sounds best. I believe repacement will just come back to haunt me. nick.evans never updated this site on how he repaired his car. Anyone else done this repair (or differently) and have pictures?

[bracketeer]

Anyone doing this job should read srvice bulletin #03-08-45-001
Nick got a little carried away accessing the problem. You only need remove access panel (drivers side) unbolt harness. Unbolt female connector and you have it in your hand.

[OldNuc]

nick.evans

The fix is to remove the female connector from the plug and clean it up and re-spring it to increase contact pressure. Then you have to look at any aftermarket loads that are connected to the I/P continuous power, lighter socket and radio are the big offenders. Below are the instructions on how to get the female connector out of the plug body. If you inadvertently trash this connector I have spares.

That red(pink) wire is a direct connection to the IP BAT fuse in the UHJB. If you have decided it is the problem fixing is usually not that bad. You disconnect the battery negative terminal and then unbolt the center bolt in the black 68 pin plug. Once the bolt spins free grab the wire bundle and wiggle it all the way out. take a small chunk of scotch brite and clean up the F-5 pin in the panel. Just get it clean on at least one side. To fix the connector in the plug you remove the blue connection assurance clip that is on the side of the plug. pull the one that holds F-5. Once that lock is out you look at the face of the plug and locate F-5. Look closely and you will see that one side is rounded under. On that side you insert the end of a flat type of bobby pin under that rounded side and when it stops you can gently pull on the back end by the red (pink) wire and it will slide out when unlatched. If it does not slide right out slightly twist the bobby pin to lift the latch. Once out re-spring the latch slightly and clean up the section that slides over the pin. Use scotch brite instead of any abrasive paper. Reassemble and reconnect negative lead at battery.


Do not attempt to directly solder to the pin in the I/P panel, the heat will potentially destroy the internal connection.

It is a shame that the search or advanced search function on this forum draws a 29" Hg vacuum on an onion sack as I have multiple posts relating to this exact failure and how to fix it.

[adventureoflink]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

nick.evans

The fix is to remove the female connector from the plug and clean it up and re-spring it to increase contact pressure. Then you have to look at any aftermarket loads that are connected to the I/P continuous power, lighter socket and radio are the big offenders. Below are the instructions on how to get the female connector out of the plug body. If you inadvertently trash this connector I have spares.

That red(pink) wire is a direct connection to the IP BAT fuse in the UHJB. If you have decided it is the problem fixing is usually not that bad. You disconnect the battery negative terminal and then unbolt the center bolt in the black 68 pin plug. Once the bolt spins free grab the wire bundle and wiggle it all the way out. take a small chunk of scotch brite and clean up the F-5 pin in the panel. Just get it clean on at least one side. To fix the connector in the plug you remove the blue connection assurance clip that is on the side of the plug. pull the one that holds F-5. Once that lock is out you look at the face of the plug and locate F-5. Look closely and you will see that one side is rounded under. On that side you insert the end of a flat type of bobby pin under that rounded side and when it stops you can gently pull on the back end by the red (pink) wire and it will slide out when unlatched. If it does not slide right out slightly twist the bobby pin to lift the latch. Once out re-spring the latch slightly and clean up the section that slides over the pin. Use scotch brite instead of any abrasive paper. Reassemble and reconnect negative lead at battery.


Do not attempt to directly solder to the pin in the I/P panel, the heat will potentially destroy the internal connection.

It is a shame that the search or advanced search function on this forum draws a 29" Hg vacuum on an onion sack as I have multiple posts relating to this exact failure and how to fix it.

You could bookmark this thread or use Google to search for F5+inurl:saturnfans.com/forums/

thanks for the heads-up on no solder on the F-5 while still connected, since my relay project involves that F-12 wire a few blocks up...

and what you posted is how you remove the I/P panel from the electric connector panel on the back?

[madpogue]

Originally Posted by OldNuc

It is a shame that the search or advanced search function on this forum draws a 29" Hg vacuum on an onion sack as I have multiple posts relating to this exact failure and how to fix it.

The only thing wrong with the search is that it falls on its face with any search terms less than four characters long. And of course, "F5" and "F-5" are perfect examples. What we really need is to make one of your more memorable threads on the topic a Sticky, or have it moved to the How-To Library. Then, a more search-friendly keyword (even a dummy word, or something like "Eff-Five") should be added to the Subject line. Or, for that matter, a new How-To written, with this in mind when constructing it. Once established, we can then direct new inquiries either to that thread, or to do the specific search.

[adventureoflink]

Originally Posted by madpogue

The only thing wrong with the search is that it falls on its face with any search terms less than four characters long. And of course, "F5" and "F-5" are perfect examples. What we really need is to make one of your more memorable threads on the topic a Sticky, or have it moved to the How-To Library. Then, a more search-friendly keyword (even a dummy word, or something like "Eff-Five") should be added to the Subject line. Or, for that matter, a new How-To written, with this in mind when constructing it. Once established, we can then direct new inquiries either to that thread, or to do the specific search.

you could also put the Eff-Five in the search tags when making a new thread

[OldNuc]

Yes, this malady attacks the gen-3 cars at F-2 as well. Gen-1 is F-6 and 95 may be an oddball and same as gen-2, F-5.

This is the result of a continuous higher than design load on the IP BAT circuit. This is usually caused by a high power radio or head unit and/or connecting additional electronic gadgets into the cigarette lighter. Cell phone charger will cause this failure over time. This is one of those - an amp here and there and pretty soon you are talking about a real load - issues.

The replacement of the I/P panel is not difficult but finding a good replacement can be a challenge and new is out of the question cost wise. The panel is year specific in most cases and in some cases even model specific.

[bracketeer]

I googled saturn f5 pin location and it lead me to this thread.

[OldNuc]

That is because there are precious few threads that have F5 in the title. What you will find is that the post title usually lists the symptoms.

[rbar]

WOW, you sure believe in disassembly! Sure saves standing on your head for the F5 issue..
Here is a link to my solution:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=172698

My F5 pin cleaned up well, but the connector side was melted into the assembly block. I had to carefully mine it out with a tiny drill bit to remove it.
I had planned at that point just to attach a new clip and lead wire to it, insert through the widened hole (be careful not to impact neighboring connections), reattach the block and and then splice the new lead wire into the F5 fat red wire.
As it turned out, the replacement connector was a bit larger than the original and fit snuggly in the enlarged hole, and was locked in by the sliding blue "comb" piece. Solder the connector whichever way one fixes it.
OLDNUC knows his stuff!

RBar

Originally Posted by nick.evans

1999 Saturn SC1
130,000 Miles

Have been doing a lot of research on an issue that has plagued me for a while now. My fuel pump stopped working and after testing the pump and finding it was receiving no power, the lines were traced to the Instrument Panel Junction Block (IPJB). Knowing the source of the issue gave me better search options and led me here to this site where many other Saturn owners have had the exact same issue, all diagnosed as an F5 issue (F5 being the connection point where power is sent to a particular series of fuses and relays including the Chime, Dome Light, and Fuel Pump). I took apart the console inside to access my IPJB and examined the F5. I found the F5, took pictures so others know what they're looking for, but unfortunately I do not know how to fix the problem. One user suggested re-springing the F5 but I honestly don't know what that means. I'm hoping this thread can serve as a place for all users to suggest how they fix their F5 problems.

The Console Torn Apart



The right side of the IPJB

(The Fuse Box is held on with tabs, slide a screw driver under the metal part in the red box to detach the tab... slide it slowly to avoid breaking anything. NOTE: It is not necessary to remove the fuse box entirely, but if you wanted to, or if it helps you gain better access at the F5 pin that's what holds it on.)

The Backside of the Fuse Panel we care about (When facing the backside of the fuses there are 3 panels, this panel is nearest to the engine, or the farthest left when facing the wires. The panel is removed by loosening the bolt in the middle of it. The bolt does not remove, loosen till it spins freely and then wiggle the panel/plug as a whole to pull off.)


The fuse Panel contains tiny letters and numbers, this is how we find which is the F5, or use the above diagram.
The Large gauge red wire that runs to the F5 supplies the power to the Chime, Dome Light, and Fuel Pump (possibly others?)

The port side of the fuse panel


The F5 Pin shows signs signs of problems around it.


Several suggestions to fix include:
Using a scotch pad to clean up pin and connectors.
Re-springing the connector (shown in the 4th picture, the port side of the panel). I don't know exactly what this means.

Cleaning the connectors has at least got my car running again for the time being, but a more permanent solution is still sought. Any and all suggestions and/or critiques are welcome and appreciated.

[nick.evans]

Working on a fix now.

[OldNuc]

It is possible to just replace the entire fuse panel. They are year and sometimes model specific but also not real expensive at the J/Y.

[nick.evans]

Even if I replaced the box the issue seems to be very common in saturns, no reason to go through all the hassle of replacing the part with another crap piece needing fixed later. We did a solder fix to solve the problem. I'm going to post pictures of the fix for reference soon.

[OldNuc]

Soldering the F-5 connection does not solve the problem. The actual cause is internal overheating from the excessive current load. To solve the problem the audio systems and all the extra electrical items must be powered from a new panel fed directly from the battery. Anything will just be moving the point of failure.