need help from saturn experts!!

[presnell48]

got a 98 saturn 1.9 dohc. heard from a freind that a throttle body off a 2.2 liter would fit my car. just wondering IF this is true and what model car, maybe even a van would i have to get one off of. I'm also wondering what everybody is doing to beef up the 1.9's. any help would be appreciated

[AlexofNazareth]

What do you hope to accomplish by slapping on a "bigger" throttle body?

And most of the basic modifications wont net you much power, so if you're looking for beef, you wont find it in these tupperware containers

[presnell48]

when u gut them out put a cage in it and make a full blown dirt racecar they move on pretty good. just trying to get that little edge. i'm guessing the 2.2 tb is bigger so we will get more air to make the car run leaner. anybody know about adjusting fuel pressure?

[G.M.]

the throttle body is not a restriction for the engine. it's sized up to provide adequate airflow to match headflow capabilities. The 2.2 won't fit on it anyway. you may be thinking of the Geo Storm throttle body. that'll fit, but I don't see the benefit.
fuel tuning...that'll help. it runs very rich. you could put on a piggyback system like the SAFC2 and lean out the wide open throttle fuel curve. it'll certainly help. won't do squat for anything under WOT, but who cares.

check class rules first. don't want to break the rules now, do we?

[BobbyP]

Originally Posted by AlexofNazareth

What do you hope to accomplish by slapping on a "bigger" throttle body?

And most of the basic modifications wont net you much power, so if you're looking for beef, you wont find it in these tupperware containers

? My SC was pretty quick, not as fast as my Red Line...

[presnell48]

lol naaa dont wanna break them rules. thanks for the information g.m i will do some research on the SAFC2 and see what i can come up with. its running way to rich right now so leanin it out will help out alot. we might try a hotter plug and see what that does. right now we're running a cold plug with the racing gas while we're figuring the car out.

[presnell48]

the SAFC2 is out the picture lol. gonna have to find a sponsor for that one, just a little bit pricey.

[AlexofNazareth]

Racing gas and whatever plugs youre using isnt helping. These cars were designed to run on regular and the cheapo NGKs work well. You're getting worse performance using a higher octane gas.

save the money by getting normal gas and save towards something else, such as the SAFC2

[presnell48]

ya they were designed for regular gas. almost every motor on the market was built for regular gas. but once u start modifying the motor its time to run some good gas.

[Jess Lookin]

I have a storm TB you can have for $40 plus shipping. You can find the write up on how to do it on sixthsphere.

[PlasticCarsRock]

If you install the Storm GSI (twin cam) throttle body, and bore the intake manifold to match it, you may add a few horses. The main difference is throttle response, though, which only makes the car feel faster. If it's legal, though, you might as well do it... every little bit helps.

Assuming the race gas is ethanol free, it might be helping a bit (but because of the ethanol, not the higher octane. Anything over 89-91 octane is completely unnecessary with a stock engine (not high compression). 89 vs 87 may help a bit, particularly on hot days, if the ethanol content is the same. Get ethanol free fuel, if you can find it: that will make the biggest difference.

The '91 and '92 DOHC Saturns came with a header, from the factory. If you look around the junkyards (or ebay) you may be able to find one. That will probably give you the most gain for the money (also add a 2.25" mendrel bent exhaust; if this is strictly an off road car, you can delete the cat for convenience, but don't expect much from it). A cold air intake (not "short ram") will help a bit, too, but nothing drastic (nothing like the 10+ hp they claim).

If legal, you can switch the fuel system to one from a '95-'97 S-Series. Those have adjustable fuel pressure regulators, which would help you lean it out a bit (not enough or nearly as effective as an SAFCII, but cheaper, and better than nothing).

If in the future, you do go with an SAFCII, the best source is typically ebay (used). You will also need a wide-band O2 sensor/gauge to be able to do anything with the SAFCII (never try to tune blindly, you'll make it worse or break something). The sensors have a finite lifespan, so it's better to buy them new, but you can get a used gauge and buy a new sensor for it, if that's cheaper than buying the whole thing new.

Short of tearing the whole engine apart to do a high compression build, which I'm guessing is out of your budget, you're not going to see a lot of gain.

In order of importance (more power to less power): weight reduction; tuning (SAFCII, etc); OE header; aftermarket header; cold air intake; Geo Storm throttle body

If you haven't already, tear out everything unnecessary, for the weight savings. That will make more of a difference than the other stuff.

[AlexofNazareth]

Originally Posted by presnell48

ya they were designed for regular gas. almost every motor on the market was built for regular gas. but once u start modifying the motor its time to run some good gas.

yeah, maybe once you get into being able to tune and also raising compression ratios, but outside of that, you're not getting any benefit.

[Tom92SCm]

Since your running at full throttle most of the time during the race, the car is running in open loop ECU operation. When it runs in open loop, it runs rich. You can turn down the fuel pressure a little so it doesn't run as rich.

Check this out:
http://www.evilplastic.com/92mod7.htm#fpr

[presnell48]

i wanna thank ya'll for all the information i really do appreciate it. ya i've already did a major weight reduction, run 2.25 exaust halfway through the car and out the passenger side, decked the block shaved a few thousandths off the head and got a valve job. the bottom still stock i need to work on it a little more but the compression is actually good. it has more than the 2.3 ford motor that was built to the gills for racing. but i've only ran the car just a few times with great success and have never ran a fwd let alone a fuel injected car so all this is new to me. just wanted to get some tips to help me learn these cars a little bit quicker so i'm not to far behind on modifications lol.

[PlasticCarsRock]

Originally Posted by presnell48

i wanna thank ya'll for all the information i really do appreciate it. ya i've already did a major weight reduction, run 2.25 exaust halfway through the car and out the passenger side, decked the block shaved a few thousandths off the head and got a valve job. the bottom still stock i need to work on it a little more but the compression is actually good. it has more than the 2.3 ford motor that was built to the gills for racing. but i've only ran the car just a few times with great success and have never ran a fwd let alone a fuel injected car so all this is new to me. just wanted to get some tips to help me learn these cars a little bit quicker so i'm not to far behind on modifications lol.

Oh, so it sounds like you're on top of things. How much did you shave? You can't take much (technically not anything) off the block, but you can take over .040" off the head (up to about .070", but that's pushing it). If you took that much off, then your right to use higher octane fuel ('91 is usually plenty, if that's all you did). If you don't use the higher octane, the car won't ping noticeable, but the PCM will retard the timing to prevent it (enough to really kill your power). And, if at all possible, get ethanol free fuel for the higher energy content.

As far as the bottom end... unless there's something wrong with it, there really isn't much you can do for it. You can strengthen it a bit, with a brace plate from the third gen DOHCs (that's mainly for smoothness/vibration reduction, though), and install third gen rods with third gen pistons (slightly longer rods=less dwell time, and a slightly better angle, against the crank). If you didn't shave the head very much, you can use second gen pistons (what you have) on the newer rods, for a significant compression increase (you need to shave the tops of the pistons a bit--the math you need, to figure out how much for your goals, is on sixthsphere).

You can also use an intake cam from another S-Series in place of your exhaust cam for slightly more duration and lift (you need to remove the timing chain cover to re-clock the cam sprocket, and you need to grind a little nub out of the head (or machine a ring off the cam, if you have a lathe), so it's not a simple swap, but it's good for a few hp (more than any bolt-ons). See: http://forums.plastikhosting.net/viewtopic.php?t=1373

[presnell48]

ya we're kinda on top of things. we took our knowledge from the v8's and 2.3 ford motors and converted it to the 1.9. i'm just trying to learn this fuel injected stuff seeing how i'm used to a good holley carb lol.

we only took .030 off the head and didnt get the block decked just resurfaced.

i made a heat shield to go over the exaust manifold last night to keep the warm air away from the k&n filter. we used to have funnel type deal in the headlight that pushed the cool air straight to the filter but the tech didnt like it so we had to take it off. the shield should help out alot. at least i'm thinkin it would lol

[presnell48]

alright i keep lookin at the pic on the evil plastic site about the fpr. i got the plastic fuel rails and have not noticed anywhere to bolt it up. any ideas? i'll check it out tomorrow and see what i can do but if somebody has already messed with one on the plastic rails it would help out alot.

[PlasticCarsRock]

Originally Posted by presnell48

alright i keep lookin at the pic on the evil plastic site about the fpr. i got the plastic fuel rails and have not noticed anywhere to bolt it up. any ideas? i'll check it out tomorrow and see what i can do but if somebody has already messed with one on the plastic rails it would help out alot.

Didn't you already have a plastic fuel rail? My impression is that '95 to '99 had the same intake manifolds. The '98 just has a different (but plastic) fuel rail, without the adjustable FPR. See: http://www.saturnwiki.net/index.php/Swap_Guide. Unless I'm mistaken, the adjustable FPR rail should bolt up exactly the same as the one you took off. (Unless you happen to have a pre-'95 intake mani with an aluminum fuel rail...)

[presnell48]

yes i already had the plastic fuel rail. i misworded my last post and it made it sound like i just got it. so i'm gonna have to find a aluminum fuel rail so can bolt the fpr?

i finally found a geo storm throttle body and it bolted right up. the inside diameter is over 2mm bigger and in the racing world thats alot. theres a few mods needed and the throttle position sensors are different. will it hurt the performance if i ran the car without the sensor? not sure exactly what the sensor is for as i'm not familiar with fuel injected. it fired right up and it also has a different tone that sounds a lot better but i wont be able to tell anything untill we're on the track.

[AlexofNazareth]

hook up the sensor:

http://www.saturnspot.com/showthread.php?t=28072