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Old 07-19-2011, 09:02 AM   #1
mwaynew
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Default sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Hello- Haven't been here in a while but I've got a familiar problem with my 2003 saturn vue, 4 cylinder, fwd, 5 speed. 147000 miles. Started it one morning and fan came on immediately, idle was extremely rough and no power. I had to drive it 3 miles to an Auto Zone, but that's it. They could not get a computer (BCM?) connection at all so I have no codes to go by. So- the rough idle and loss of power I assume to be a misfiring. But the constant fan? I know that it could be the ICM, coil pack etc., but an on-line tech told me it to be the ECTS or bad PCM. Thats dianosis would imply that the fan symptom would also cause misfiring. Wouldn't it be the other way around? Oh, and I've already replaced the spark plugs. Should I be looking for another car? Thanks for your help.

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Old 07-19-2011, 09:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwaynew View Post
Hello- Haven't been here in a while but I've got a familiar problem with my 2003 saturn vue, 4 cylinder, fwd, 5 speed. 147000 miles. Started it one morning and fan came on immediately, idle was extremely rough and no power. I had to drive it 3 miles to an Auto Zone, but that's it. They could not get a computer (BCM?) connection at all so I have no codes to go by. So- the rough idle and loss of power I assume to be a misfiring. But the constant fan? I know that it could be the ICM, coil pack etc., but an on-line tech told me it to be the ECTS or bad PCM. Thats dianosis would imply that the fan symptom would also cause misfiring. Wouldn't it be the other way around? Oh, and I've already replaced the spark plugs. Should I be looking for another car? Thanks for your help.
The ECM decides when to run radiator cooling fan.

Fan run can be in response to high coolant temperature (check temp gauge and oil pressure light), or when A/C compressor is running.

If you're satisfied there's sufficient oil and coolant in engine and A/C is OFF (ensure blower speed switch is Off - compressor also runs with HVAC control in defrost or various floor settings).

If fluids are OK and compressor is Off and the fan still comes on, you probably have a bad blower motor resistor. (I've lost sleep wondering why the 2.2 fan runs when resistor opens - but it can happen).

Re OBD port .... scanner power is provided by a fuse in under-hood fuse/relay box. I believe the fuse is generally titled AUX 1 Outlet (15A) so you may want to check.

An evil running engine could be the ignition items you mention, but might also be failing CKP, fuel starvation, dirty/obstructed air filter, gummed throttle body or 101 other items.

Being able to read codes - if the SES is lighted - is good first step.

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Old 07-19-2011, 10:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Well I forgot to mention SES light- flashing. Also, high coolant temp not an issue as the fan turned on as soon as I started the car inthe morning. So flashing SES and I'm aware of potential converter damage. Extreme engine vibration at idle- approx. 700 rpm.

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Old 07-22-2011, 09:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

I'm having the same problem in my '03 vue (4 cyl, fwd, 5 speed, 157k miles). Have you been able to resolve the issue? If so, what was it?
Thank you!

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Old 07-22-2011, 10:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

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I'm having the same problem in my '03 vue (4 cyl, fwd, 5 speed, 157k miles). Have you been able to resolve the issue? If so, what was it?
Thank you!
Does engine run rough at start and miss for entire run-time?

Or, does it start OK and miss develops as engine warms?

Is the reduced power light illuminated?

If you have SES - have you tried to have codes read?

Misfire codes (P0300, P0301, P0102, P0303 or P0304) might not be conclusive unless you have one cylinder consistently misfiring which could suggest plug or fuel injector.

You can find a checklist for rough running 2.2 in post # 6 of this thread:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=152089

See post # 6 of this thread for a description of 2.2 ignition system:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=150515

Repost if you feel any of referenced docs will help troubleshoot.

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Old 07-22-2011, 12:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Yes, it's rough from the start, but becomes more obvious as it warms. Had it checked for codes and I was told there were none. The "reduced power" light is not on.
After replacing spark plugs and adding a bottle of fuel injector cleaner, the problem went from being constant to only during idle and acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear and @ 2.5k RPMs and lower (problem is most noticible @ approx. 1.7k RPM).
Also, the fan speed is very high from the time the car is first started and doesn't slow down (A/C is off). If th A/C is turned on, then the problem increases.

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Old 07-22-2011, 12:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Does starter turn engine as strong as ever - question relates to battery?

A weak or failing battery reduces power available to provide for fuel system, ignition, creature comfort (HVAC blower), etc.

If the radiator cooling fan is running on high - the total current draw of electrical circuits will exceed the power the alternator can provide (probably until engine RPM is around 1200).

If current draw exceeds alternator capacity at any given point the battery must make up the difference, and if battery is old and tired the various systems could be running on fewer volts than designed for.

Do you have a meter? I can direct you to a schematic for the radiator cooling fan - as stated in post # 2 it could be a bad resistor but we should able to confirm.

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Old 07-22-2011, 12:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

I have not noticed any change in starter/starting. Seems to be fine, but will check that as well.

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Old 07-22-2011, 01:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

If you have voltmeter - check battery voltage with engine off - then crank-up - with normal electrical loads applied - at idle RPM - recheck.

12.6 is a good number with engine off and anything over 13 volts should be OK with engine running.

If voltage is low, with engine at idle, raise RPM until meter indicates 13 or better and record that RPM.

You could temporarily disable the cooling fan to see if engine smooths out. Pull the COOL HI 40 amp fuse and COOL LO 20 amp fuse from the under-hood fuse and relay panel to see if engine improves.

You can find a cooling fan schematic in post # 7 of following thread:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=136254

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Old 07-23-2011, 10:50 PM   #10
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

My fan ran from a cold start when I replaced an O2 sensor with the incorrect part from Autozone. It never ran except for hot days when driving with AC on before this. How l;ong since an O2 sensor change?

I'm only guessing but it could be something unrelated to cooling system.

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Old 07-24-2011, 03:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Had the same problem on my 2006 Vue. Replaced the coil pack. Engine runs smooth and the fan runs less. Also changed the plugs.

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Old 07-24-2011, 10:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

We had the same problem you are describing. I would stop driving it immediately. However since you have been driving it, hopefully your cat converter is not fried.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=132256

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Old 08-23-2011, 11:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

I am new to this forum as a member but have been searching the content for awhile. My 2007 Vue, 2.2 FWD, with just under 28k miles has the rough idle, with a check engine light that comes on (sometimes flashes first) and stays on. Sometimes, after many miles of driving, the light goes out, but then will come back in a few days. I've noticed my electric fan comes on at random even without the engine fully warmed and A/C is off. When it comes on, the Traction Control (TC) light usually comes on, then goes out when the fan turns off. I've had Autozone scan my OBD II connector and there have been no reported codes.

After reading the numerous threads and posts regarding 2.2 Ecotec idling issues, from Vues, to L-Series (my former L200 was perfect at 128k miles and I sold it), and Ions, I swapped out the AC Delco plugs for a set of Autolite double platinums. No change in symptoms, so I reinstalled the Delco plugs.

Recently, I gambled on a Duralast ICM from Autozone ($87) and installed it. No change in idle issues; I've left the Duralast ICM in there for the time being. My gas mileage is fine; averaging 25 mpg all the time, even with a bad idle. When I accelerate away from idle, she is smooth as silk and doesn't miss a beat.

I'm concerned that a Tech 2 scanner at the local Chevy dealer still won't give a proper diagnosis, since none of the threads seem to mention any dealer repairs for these symptoms. I'm leaning towards disabling the cooling fan by pulling the fuses and see if that contributes to the problem; but also I am considering a new coil pack (I decided not to do the coil pack when I did the ICM because I figured the ICM is controlling the firing of the coils, and since the car has smooth power when I accelerate, it was a problem with the ICM at idle). I am also considering going after the coolant sensor, even though my temp gauge reads normal.

I am engineer by education and hate just changing out parts without a thorough diagnosis, but there seems to be too many variables here and I am looking for the likely common culprit. - Andy

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Old 08-23-2011, 12:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Andy ... a few thoughts in no particular order:

For some reason AZ code readers fail to capture some of the generic codes.

Poor idle - but good acceleration/mid-range run - could be vacuum related.

An earlier post in this thread mentions incorrect O2 sensor seemed to cause fan to run when not needed.

You may have reviewed following thread ... there's service manual extract for poor idle in post # 6:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=152089

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Old 08-23-2011, 02:37 PM   #15
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Thanks for the valuable insight. I looked and listened for a vacuum leak, but didn't detect any. Are vacuum leaks common on this motor?

The O2 sensor issue seems very weird in relationship to the fan, but I'll may a visual inspection and see if anything is up with the wire leading to it.

I read the idle diagnosis attachment; there is a lot of other diagnostic documents that I wish we had access to. I also noticed in the fuel system diagnosis that they reference the use of a Tech 2.

I will go after the basics first; wire routing and grounds (I already did a "wiggle" test on a couple of the harnesses to no effect). I may also go after the air intake but given the highway speed the car can achieve, I doubt there are any restrictions (the air filter is new).

Have you ever heard of a fuel injector that produces a rough idle yet provides smooth acceleration performance?

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Old 08-23-2011, 08:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

No to fuel injector causing rough idle ... but I have experienced O2 sensor causing skip ... both at idle and higher RPM.

Does the engine idle good on initial (cold) start-up?

If yes, but degrades as temp climbs - try unplugging the pre-cat O2 sensor. Its OK to drive around with sensor unplugged. The ECM will run in open-loop for as long as you like.

The little guy may set a code, which should clear when you reconnect.

I also like to use hemostat or long-nose pliers to pinch various vacuum and EVAP lines when engine runs.

The unwanted radiator fan run is an added complication. The ECM commands fan run when coolant temp reaches threshold or the AC compressor runs.

You indicate the temp is normal and fan continues to light-off early. Make sure the HVAC blower switch is set to 0 next time fan runs (if not already there).

Some members have noted the radiator cooling fan runs when the low-speed resistor fails (opens). I suppose your resistor could have an intermittent connection to cause similar problem.

There's a cooling fan diagram in post # 10 of following thread (you may find post # 9 interesting also):

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=155502

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Old 08-23-2011, 08:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Initial startup idle is fine. As the revs come down from about 1000rpm through 700rpm, you can start to detect the idle getting choppy. It's bad at 650rpm with the miss. Give it a little gas and it revs right up on all 4. I'll go after the pre-cat O2 sensor and pull the wire. I already have the CEL on; I'm not worried about setting a code. I'm more interested in finding out what is causing this little bugger to miss.

I always have my blower set to the first speed. I'll turn it off tomorrow and see what that does to the fan turning on and post the results. I may not get to the O2 until the weekend because I need the car for work. Thanks for the link; I'll visit that too.

Andy

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Old 08-24-2011, 11:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Turned off blower fan this morning; no change in cooling fan behavior. The cooling fan came on while idling at a light when the engine was almost fully warm. TC light came on as usual. Idle was still crappy. Accelerated away smoothly and TC light went out as usual.; CEL still burning bright. Outside air temp was about 63 deg F this morning.

Got about 27mpg on this trip (Long Island, NY to Allentown, PA and back), crappy idle and all.

Will look to go after the O2 wire in the next few days. Won't expect 27mpg if running in open loop, but will be curious to see if pulling the wire keeps the idle high enough that it never gets down into that 650rpm rumble.

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Old 08-26-2011, 08:55 PM   #19
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

Here's an update on Chitty Chitty Bang Bang:

Idle is terrible. Going on far2grumpy's mention of a vacuum leak, I went looking for one. I found what looks like a vapor purge device attached to the head. The hose running to the underside of the car appeared loose, so I reconnected it. Idle is still bad though, with numerous blinkings of the CEL. The electric fan started as soon as I started the car. I probed around all the connections I could, including taking connectors off and reconnecting them. No change to the idle. I had the battery disconnected the whole time.

Currently the CEL is not lit, but she's still running rough. I'm starting to wonder if it's the resistors in the electronic throttle when the pedal is not depressed and the car is idling. I'm running out of thoughts.

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Old 08-26-2011, 10:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: sudden misfiring,loss of power and fan on

A couple of thoughts after reading your post ...

I'm not sure its a good idea to run engine with battery disconnected. The battery probably acts as a filter to "smooth" any transients the alternator provides to the power bus.

And, regarding resistors in throttle system ... if the throttle operates at all positions other than idle - say RPM increases and decreases as expected when you press the pedal - the throttle system is probably as good as its going to get.

The throttle body does have an idle position - supposedly set by ECM after any TAC connectors, or component have been replaced. Service manual says to advance key to ON - without starting - and leave to ON for at least a minute. (You'll definitely need the battery connected for the throttle blade to calibrate).

You've probably seen but I've attached extract for 2005 Vue 2.2 throttle actuator control system just in case.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 05 Vue - 2.2 TAC Theory.pdf (34.2 KB, 31 views)

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