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Old 08-17-2011, 12:54 PM   #81
ehunter
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Location: Pacifica by San Francisco 5sp Engine rebuild with the help of people here at 177K due to 500mi/qt oil consumption. After 2yrs I am back to 40mpg+ after discovering the refirb head I used was bad. Car runs better than a top. Now at 214k.
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1996 SL2
Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post
Other things took up way too much time today, but I was able to get more things organized and cleaned, and I also got the oil pump installed into the timing cover with everything torqued to spec and sealed with loctite.
Wow... that is a really grungy inside of the timing cover. Gives me the heebie jeebies.

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Old 08-26-2011, 05:11 PM   #82
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Other things have been occupying my time, hope to get back to this project tomorrow. Crank install is up next.
Here are pix of the KB/Silv-O-Lite pistons with the Hastings rings.

There are two pictures of each piston from different angles.
The pip in compression ring #2 is facing up. There are more pictures if anybody has questions about what the KB/Silv-O-Lite pistons look like.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston1_1.jpg (29.9 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston1_2.jpg (33.7 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston2_1.jpg (32.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston2_2.jpg (34.2 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston3_1.jpg (32.8 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston3_2.jpg (32.6 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston4_1.jpg (34.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston4_2.jpg (34.6 KB, 19 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-26-2011, 05:16 PM   #83
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

A few more pix.

* Typical Silv-O-Lite piston skirt.
* Oil drainback hole, the piston is being held upside down and you can see the light through the drainback hole. Interestingly, in these pistons, there are only two drainback holes, one on each side of the piston, and they are relatively big. Comments and opinions are welcome.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_NewPiston3_4.jpg (32.9 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_KB_drain_Hole1.jpg (26.8 KB, 47 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-26-2011, 05:44 PM   #84
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post
A few more pix.

* Typical Silv-O-Lite piston skirt.
* Oil drainback hole, the piston is being held upside down and you can see the light through the drainback hole. Interestingly, in these pistons, there are only two drainback holes, one on each side of the piston, and they are relatively big. Comments and opinions are welcome.
That is what the Sealed Power pistons looks like. Not a noticeable difference. Whichever company can supply a consistent product wins.

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Old 08-27-2011, 04:15 PM   #85
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Installed the main bearings and pistons. Check my work and let me know if I have the pistons in backwards. :-)

I've yet to torque the rod bolts, I need to get the rod bolts and nuts swept clean with acetone, torque them to 33 Lbs, and then loctite them.

Quote:
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That is what the Sealed Power pistons looks like. Not a noticeable difference. Whichever company can supply a consistent product wins.
What struck me as odd is that there are only two oil drainback holes, when you are telling people to drill 6 or so.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_PistonsInstalled21.jpg (64.6 KB, 47 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-27-2011, 04:22 PM   #86
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Pistons are in the right way. The tangs on the bearings should be facing the exhaust side and the valve cuts face the intake.

It is the area that you are after. Three to 4 holes per side or those open ports will do the job.

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Old 08-28-2011, 02:12 AM   #87
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Location: Pacifica by San Francisco 5sp Engine rebuild with the help of people here at 177K due to 500mi/qt oil consumption. After 2yrs I am back to 40mpg+ after discovering the refirb head I used was bad. Car runs better than a top. Now at 214k.
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Nice Pics Mac,

What kind of tool did you use to set the piston wrist springs in place? It seems to be quite a choir for me.

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Old 08-28-2011, 04:51 AM   #88
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

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Nice Pics Mac,

What kind of tool did you use to set the piston wrist springs in place? It seems to be quite a chore for me.
Wrist pin clips were something I let the machine shop take care of. I knew there was a trick to it and as a noob to engine building I let a pro take care of it since I had enough on my plate. Curiosity had me searching on google. There is a 6S thread that describes the use of screwdrivers and it being a little tricky but was relatively easy once the trick was figured out. There was also someone who used copper pipe of the right diameter, a penny, and some enginuity.

Glad you like the pics, they are a great reference source and documentation of the process.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-28-2011, 07:34 AM   #89
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

This is one of those things that there is no tool for. The clips with the tabs are easy the circular wire spring clips are tricky. You can pop them in with your thumb and a blunt instrument to push the loose end into place. They have to be positioned just right or they will not go into place.

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Old 08-28-2011, 04:56 PM   #90
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project


Question for OldNuc: in ehunter's thread you say to install the main bearing cap bolts dry, which is what I did and then torqued to 37ft-lb. However, the "95 FSM and the "98 FSM both say to "Apply a light coat of engine oil on the threads and under the heads of the cap bolts."

Which is correct? I'm thinking that they would turn a bit tighter with the oil on them, but on the other hand if they are dry bolts as I did, the would not be going anywhere either.

Quote from ehunter's thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
All bolting is dry unless specifically stated to be oiled, that is only the head bolts. All of the general hold it in place fasteners are used with either locktite or antiseize. The rod nuts and main bearing caps are just run in as they are, dry. It is good to ask these things before something breaks. Speaking of break, the torque for the rod nuts is 33ft-lb and that is very close to the snap off point. The rod bolts and nuts should be wiped off carefully so as to not end up over torquing one of them.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-28-2011, 05:48 PM   #91
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post

Question for OldNuc: in ehunter's thread you say to install the main bearing cap bolts dry, which is what I did and then torqued to 37ft-lb. However, the "95 FSM and the "98 FSM both say to "Apply a light coat of engine oil on the threads and under the heads of the cap bolts."

Which is correct? I'm thinking that they would turn a bit tighter with the oil on them, but on the other hand if they are dry bolts as I did, the would not be going anywhere either.

Quote from ehunter's thread:
Unless you pulled them right out of the wash tank they will be fine. The torque spec is for a bolt as it comes from the bolt bin. Which is a very light dusting of an anti rust protective oil. The stuff has next to no film strength. If you start using engine oil then that changes and you have to look at the torque tables. Oiled treads vs dry threads and oiled head etc. Makes for interesting theory. The nominal accuracy of a hand torque wrench when discussing the actual clamping force produced is +/-25% the difference between oiled and dry when using engine oil is about 20%. In the 20-40 ft-lb realm it should be near insignificant. And the rod bolts tend to break at a bit over 33ft-lb. The gen-3 torque to yield are 33ft-lb but they are a slight bit smaller diameter.

You could crack them all lose and oil them lightly. Rods and mains are supposed to be lightly oiled, head - nut - threads. Depends on how you plan on operating the engine.

Last edited by OldNuc; 08-28-2011 at 06:03 PM..

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Old 08-28-2011, 06:36 PM   #92
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Thanks for the explanation, it clears things up a bit.
They were awfully dry and "sticky" when torquing. Wanting to only do this once, I'm going follow the FSM for my own piece of mind.

The engine will be operated normally with occasional bursts to 5K RPM.

I have the SF instructions for the head bolts since the FSM install sequence is erroneous. I think I may already have them printed out in the folder in the garage.
Crank will set to 90 degrees past TDC for the head install to protect the valves.
I have my lint-free cloth and acetone in hand to clean the mating surfaces, and the drill bits for the timing chain install. I doubt I will get that far tonight, I don't want to be rushed or tired when torquing head bolts.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-28-2011, 06:46 PM   #93
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

I would defiantly redo the main bolts and if the rods seemed dry those also. But, as those bolts are known to snap at an indicated 33ft-lb I would be only going to 30-31ft-lb and call it good. Having a calibrated torque ***** would be nice. The old bending beam type are much better in the accuracy department.

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Old 08-28-2011, 07:42 PM   #94
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

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I called gun shops in my area and they told me they dont even stock nylon brushes anymore. Nobody wants them anymore in place of the more desirable types of brushes people use now a days for their guns.

Google "mr gasket #1211" and you will get plenty hits for nylon.

I traced mine to a "racing" auto parts store; it cost $10 for 3 different sizes.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...&postcount=209
I got brush set from harbor frieght, include steel,brass, and plastic

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Old 08-28-2011, 09:30 PM   #95
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Location: Pacifica by San Francisco 5sp Engine rebuild with the help of people here at 177K due to 500mi/qt oil consumption. After 2yrs I am back to 40mpg+ after discovering the refirb head I used was bad. Car runs better than a top. Now at 214k.
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

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Thanks for the explanation, it clears things up a bit.
They were awfully dry and "sticky" when torquing. Wanting to only do this once, I'm going follow the FSM for my own piece of mind.

I don't want to be rushed or tired when torquing head bolts.
I am going out again and lightly oil/re-torque mine too.

Torquing the head down is best done when you are not tired after a long days work. That only invites mistakes. I agree it is best done in the morning when you are fresh, wide eyed and bushy tailed.

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:22 PM   #96
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

I have a Craftsman beam type torque wrench that covers the range for the critical fasteners such as the mains, rods, and head bolts. I really like the fact that I can see what is going on instead of just having a blind "click", I have a lot more confidence in it, no matter what the piece of paper in the box for the clicker wrench says.

Rowdydog: I have that same brush set, I may not have needed it since the machine shop did such a good job, but it is nice to follow the process and be absolutely sure those bolt holes are clean.

Mains bearing bolts have been removed, oiled lightly on the threads and under the bolt head, and reinstalled. It makes a world of difference and they tighten up in a much smoother tension curve, without any incidents of getting tight and sticky, and then jumping to the next place where they are tight again.
Rod bolts, same thing, torqued to spec.

Rear main seal and carrier is on. I had the machine shop put the seal into the carrier so I didn't have to bother installing it. This does change the install process a little from installing the seal into the carrier while it is on the block.
Process notes:
1) Make sure your bolts are clean of any residue, and apply anti-sieze to the bolts, and set them aside.
2) Grease the seal and the end of the crank so the will slide nicely.
3) Test fit the carrier to the block.
4) In the process of test fitting the carrier to the block, you will find that the trick is to seat one side of the seal on the crank, then push the carrier to the opposite side to seat the seal over the other side of the crank.
5) Match up the carrier to the dowels and seat it to the block, remove carrier from block for final preparation.
6) Acetone both mating surfaces with acetone and scotchbrite pad.
7) Make a second pass with a paper towel and acetone to clean off any debris left by the scotchbrite.
8) Regrease the end of the crank to replace the grease that was removed by the test fit.
9) Apply a bead of sealant around the sealing surface on the carrier, I used Permatex 51813. I put a finger smear of the permatex on the block also.
10) Install the carrier to the block and align, carefully seating the seal on the end of the crank. Note how tasty the red Permatex 51813 looks, it could be that gel stuff that gets used on cakes for lettering. MMmmmm, Permatex 51813.
11) Apply Loctite to the part of the threads of the bolt that will be mating with the block. If this seems odd, what I did was figure out what part of the threads were going to be in the block, and what part of the threads will be mating with the surface of the bock. What I did was match up the bolt to the carrier and note what section of the threads were exposed on the block side, and put loctite there.
12) Torque to 97 Inch Lbs.

I took the head bolts out of the bag (Fel-Pro ES72903), they are plenty wet from the factory, I'll have to wipe them down for the pre-torque part of the install process. Ehunter, speaking of bushy tailed I had a squirrel come into the garage while I was working, I scared him off because I don't want another permanent resident, since I saw a mouse running around too.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rr_main_seal_install.jpg (55.6 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_HeadBolt_ES72903_2.jpg (67.8 KB, 18 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:28 PM   #97
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Has anyone looked at the cost of tearing down the motor and taking individual pieces into a machine shop vs just taking the motor out and taking the entire thing to the machine shop for an overhaul? It seems as though the value-added by the home mechanic would not be much once the engine is out. Things like installing the head, etc would seem to be trivial things for the machine shop to do for you. I've noticed that most shops don't have their mechanics do much to the engines in prep to send it off other than basic striping.

-Robert

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Old 08-28-2011, 10:53 PM   #98
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

If you pull an engine and send it off to the machine shop for a rebuild you can plan on spending 3,000+ for the effort. The DIY rebuild is going to cost 1000.00 -> 1200.00 if there are no complications. The rest is your time and labor.

Any shop knows what has to be done to get the motor to last past he warranty period. They are not going to exercise the same level of care as a DIY owner will. Finding a shop that will rebuild an engine for you and go the extra mile is a tall order.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:37 PM   #99
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Location: Pacifica by San Francisco 5sp Engine rebuild with the help of people here at 177K due to 500mi/qt oil consumption. After 2yrs I am back to 40mpg+ after discovering the refirb head I used was bad. Car runs better than a top. Now at 214k.
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
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11) Apply Loctite to the part of the threads of the bolt that will be mating with the block. If this seems odd, what I did was figure out what part of the threads were going to be in the block, and what part of the threads will be mating with the surface of the bock. What I did was match up the bolt to the carrier and note what section of the threads were exposed on the block side, and put loctite there.

Ehunter, speaking of bushy tailed I had a squirrel come into the garage while I was working, I scared him off because I don't want another permanent resident, since I saw a mouse running around too.
Keep those squirrels away from you and your motor. Who knows what kind of nuts they'll try running off with.

I forgot the the loctite on my carrier. :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
Has anyone looked at the cost of tearing down the motor and taking individual pieces into a machine shop vs just taking the motor out and taking the entire thing to the machine shop for an overhaul? It seems as though the value-added by the home mechanic would not be much once the engine is out. Things like installing the head, etc would seem to be trivial things for the machine shop to do for you. I've noticed that most shops don't have their mechanics do much to the engines in prep to send it off other than basic striping.
Yes I did this. All the shop got was the block, pistons, crank and flywheel. Their job was to grind the crank due to minor scorning on one journal, drill drain back holes in the pistons, resurface flywheel to the specs of a TSB for my year flywheel. Have a look at my thread because I posted the invoice for my bill. You are probably the last one I have to remind of the 20% higher prices in the SF bay area.

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Old 08-28-2011, 11:55 PM   #100
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,545
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

All steel fasteners screwed into aluminum that are not oiled should have either locktite or antiseize. Aluminum oxide takes up more space than the base aluminum. The locktite or antiseize or oil excludes the oxygen and slows the oxidation process. If you run them in dry they will be near impossible to remove in 2 or 3 years. The locktite is not for preventing vibration loosening it is used as a lubricant for automatic machine assembly and to exclude oxygen. Bolting of dissimilar metals is different procedure than similar metals.

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