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Old 06-29-2011, 02:43 PM   #1
macbox
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1997 SC2
Default 98SW2 Re-Ring project

This had a bad head gasket, so as long as it is apart I am most likely going to go through with re-ringing and drilling the drainback holes in the pistons.
I can think of a few reasons not to do this but I would also like to resolve the oil burning issue as long as the head is off since I find the oil burning to be a huge hassle.

* Stats: 98 DOHC, 126K miles, 5-sp SW2.
* Story: Bad radiator end tank led to a bad head gasket and oil in the coolant.
* Status: Engine is pulled and head is off and is on the stand, I have pictures. Parts and bolts are being bagged and labeled as I go so I don't end up with any stray fasteners.
* Cams appear to be in good condition.
* Cylinder condition: Cylinder walls don't seem to have a ridge at the top, I cannot catch a fingernail on any ridge, they have visible crosshatch and don't show any signs of scoring.
* Other issues: In my noob status with performing engine work, I forgot to pin the cam sprockets and lightly dinged the intake valves on the #4 cylinder , it does not look like anything is bent, but the carbon is scraped off on a small section of those valves. I am hopeful I dodged a bullet and learned the hard way at the same time.
Pix are below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_01.jpg (91.4 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_03.jpg (35.8 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_06.jpg (79.1 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_07.jpg (73.4 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_08.jpg (58.9 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_09.jpg (67.9 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_10.jpg (77.8 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_11.jpg (77.5 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_12.jpg (76.2 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_14.jpg (72.4 KB, 103 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

Last edited by macbox; 06-29-2011 at 02:55 PM..

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Old 06-29-2011, 03:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Valve pictures.
Cylinder 1-4, left to right.
Picture #5 shows the carbon scraped off the intake valves from Cyl #4 from bumping the cylinder as described in the previous post.

The gasket looked like crap, but I don't see really obvious places where it was leaking.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_16.jpg (86.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_17.jpg (87.4 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_18.jpg (80.0 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_19.jpg (86.6 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_20.jpg (56.2 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_21.jpg (71.5 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rering_22.jpg (78.1 KB, 41 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 06-29-2011, 03:08 PM   #3
Highmile
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Since you can't find anything obvious on the head gasket it would definately be worth while to have a machine shop check the head and then touch up the valves, install new seals, etc. If you bent a valve they will find it too.

Depending in $$ and time, new pistons have the drain back in them and old ones are time consuming to clean plus drilling.

Good luck on the rebuild.

Highmile
'95 SL1 458k and counting

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95 sl1 496k (rebuilt engine)

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Old 06-29-2011, 03:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by macbox View Post
Valve pictures.
Cylinder 1-4, left to right.
Picture #5 shows the carbon scraped off the intake valves from Cyl #4 from bumping the cylinder as described in the previous post.

The gasket looked like crap, but I don't see really obvious places where it was leaking.
When you overheat the engine the tension comes off the gasket, it does not blow out. If you install new pistons then bore the block. If you want to try just new rings then measure the cylinders. You can not asses condition by eyeball unless you have looked at lots of cylinders, rings and pistons. Send the head out and have it rebuilt. It is probably a bit warped now. At this point I would also replace the rods and mains.

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Old 06-29-2011, 04:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
When you overheat the engine the tension comes off the gasket, it does not blow out. If you install new pistons then bore the block. If you want to try just new rings then measure the cylinders. You can not asses condition by eyeball unless you have looked at lots of cylinders, rings and pistons. Send the head out and have it rebuilt. It is probably a bit warped now. At this point I would also replace the rods and mains.
Good info on the tension coming off the gasket, I figured it just got hot enough for things to leak, but it still puzzled me as to why there was not an easily obvious leak point, and now I know why. Thanks!
I was planning on having everything measured, but I was not planning on rods and mains, the measurement will tell me what is going on and I will go from there. I am looking at at least a hone and re-ring. I am stocked up on Hylomar and Permatex 51813, I want this to be a no-leak engine.

The local NAPA was useless for plasti-guage, I need to look elsewhere. The local source for the KD Tools #419103 Valve Seal Pliers is $34, but it is a week and a half to get them, so I'm going to explore my options for another day before I make that decision as to where I am going to get them.

Oil pan will come off at the next opportunity, I am at the point where I have to start looking at documentation so I don't mess anything else up. I have saved threads and FSMs, so that is not an issue, I just need to review.

Questions:
* What is the inside diameter of the hose that goes over the rod bolts so I don't scratch the cylinder walls?
* Is it necessary to use new rod bolts?, I've read that some are torque to yield.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 06-29-2011, 04:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

IIRC 3/8 hose fits. Only the 2000+ are TTY. You recycle the rod bolts but, as the torque value is 33ft-lb you are very close to broke and replacements come from the junk yard.

If you had adequate oil pressure I would not bother playing with much plastigauge. You can usually asses crank condition by looking at the first rod you take the cap off of. Pay attention to rod orientation and cylinder they come out of. It is possible to find that a crank kit is the way to go. Before unbolting anything but the splash shield and pickup tube check the existing crank thrust.

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Old 06-29-2011, 05:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Cleaning pistons is not difficult. Fill your oil pan with b12 chemtool and let them soak in there for a while. Valves can be scrapedf clean with a razor after soaking. Do not hold the valve as you scrape. Either wrap it with a rag or place it between two pieces of wood with a v cut out and clamp it in a vice. Do not mix up valves and pistons. Be gentle with pistons. They are soft.

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Old 07-05-2011, 02:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Checking the crank thrust is next, where does the feeler gauge go to check this? I am thinking the feeler gauge would go between the end of the crank and the rear of the block somehow. Rod side clearance is also up to be measured. Plastigauge to check the rod bearings is still a possibility at this point in order to satisfy my curiousity.

I will be doing most of the rest of the teardown tomorrow, since today is busy with other things. B12 chemtool is in hand, I have a few things soaking already, and it doesn't eat aluminum like purple power.

Here are a few pics, one of these is of a broken stud in the head on the exhaust side, which I am making some progress on.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Broken_stud_1.jpg (58.4 KB, 75 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Oil_pickup.jpg (68.8 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Eng_stiffener_2.jpg (74.2 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Crank_exposed.jpg (68.4 KB, 104 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 07-05-2011, 04:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Upper half, the part that stays in the block, of #3 bearing push the crank one direction and measure the space on the other side.

Purple Power will do a quicker job of cleaning. Even if it does etch the aluminum surface. Or if you really want to clean them up with no manual labor required, try this: http://www.orisonmarketing.com/clean...on/carbon.html

I would be stripping the aluminum parts down and sending them to the shop to be hot tanked. The inside of that engine does not look real good and getting it clean will be difficult. You need a shop to measure the bore anyway.

Last edited by OldNuc; 07-05-2011 at 04:35 PM..

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Old 07-05-2011, 05:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

while you're in there, small suggestions:

* I'd replace the valves, at least on #3. think of it as preventative maintenance; at some point the car will burn the valves on #3.
* IIRC you also have to use new head bolts when you re-do the head gasket.

let us know how it goes! Good Luck!

...
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

How hard is it to get the rings off the pistons? I know there is a special tool for this and I am wondering if I need it.

Thrust clearance is approximately .0039. The .003 guage fit easily and the .004 almost not, so I am calling it .0039, maybe realistically a bit closer to .0036.

Rod side play: I had a question about where to measure this on the rods, I wised up and realized I should measure it against the crank instead of the rod cap, so now I have two sets of measurements.
Rod to crank clearance is:
1) .009
2) .009
3) .010
4) .010
This is within tolerance.

I found out that B-12 chemtool evaporates very quickly, so I'm off to get some purple power.
First picture is Thrust Bearing, second pic is Rod side play.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0202.jpg (63.8 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0211.jpg (71.9 KB, 58 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 07-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

You are in good shape with the crank end float.

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:15 AM   #13
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Got the rings off last night, pistons are still soaking in the purple power and will have the ring lands scrubbed out shortly, then some new pictures.

I have oil pump and bearing pictures.

Oil pump gerotor timing cover side and engine side.
Rod journals 1 and 4, which look worse than 2 and 3.
Rod and associated cap bearings, cylinders 1-4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2OilPumpGerotorEngSide1.jpg (65.8 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2OilPumpGerotorTCovSide1.jpg (75.5 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_RodJournals1-4_1.jpg (51.7 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_RodJournals1-4_4.jpg (57.7 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rod+Cap_Bearings_Cyl1-4_1.jpg (51.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rod+Cap_Bearings_Cyl1-4_2.jpg (50.5 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rod+Cap_Bearings_Cyl1-4_3.jpg (64.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_Rod+Cap_Bearings_Cyl1-4_4.jpg (56.6 KB, 42 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Crank journals for mains bearings and Main bearings 1-3.
Each set of three pictures is the 1) journal, 2) bearing from the cap, and 3) bearing from the block.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBearing_Journ_1-5_1.jpg (67.3 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainCap_Bearing_1-5_1.jpg (48.6 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBlock_Bearing_1-5_1.jpg (50.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBearing_Journ_1-5_2.jpg (75.5 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainCap_Bearing_1-5_2.jpg (52.1 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBlock_Bearing_1-5_2.jpg (46.3 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBearing_Journ_1-5_3.jpg (53.8 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainCap_Bearing_1-5_3.jpg (51.9 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBlock_Bearing_1-5_3.jpg (49.8 KB, 12 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Crank journals for mains bearings and Main bearings 4 and 5.
Each set of three pictures is the 1) journal, 2) bearing from the cap, and 3) bearing from the block.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBearing_Journ_1-5_4.jpg (44.7 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainCap_Bearing_1-5_4.jpg (48.6 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBlock_Bearing_1-5_4.jpg (48.3 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBearing_Journ_1-5_5.jpg (55.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainCap_Bearing_1-5_5.jpg (59.6 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg 98SW2_MainBlock_Bearing_1-5_5.jpg (47.3 KB, 6 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:41 AM   #16
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Oil pump, replace it as they are low cost. The wear shows as a difference in the tip profile of the inner gear. Hold it under a light and roll it back and forth and you will see the wear point if there is one.

Check the oil pump cover and timing cover for any circular wear marks. If you find any then consider part replacement.

As I have said before all aluminum parts should be off to the hot tank to be cleaned. The bearings are showing signs of particulate caused wear. Can you feel any ridges when you run a fingernail across any crank journal?

The crank should be measured and compared to the specs and also the cylinder bore. The internals of the engine have to be operating room clean before assembly for a top rebuild.

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Old 07-07-2011, 05:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Oil pump replacement is sitting on the shelf.

Block, head, and other parts are at the shop to be tanked and measured.
This is a small shop owned by two brothers, and has a good reputation. Oddly, I mentioned needing a bottom end gasket kit and he said they don't do that since they would have to pay tax on it, so it makes me wonder how they run their business. That conversation stopped there because obviously they may not be much help with rings, and they didn't offer any advice on rings and bearings. I have no doubt these guys know what they are doing with engines, but they way they operate seems to leave some questions unanswered.

For honing, they are using a 280 grit straight hone, in fact they had one on the machine when I was there and I took the picture below. Seems a little rough to me, is the end result of a straight hone different than a ball hone? I know FSM calls for 320 grit ball hone.
Their other option is a 400 grit hone, which for my cylinders may be all it needs.

I am wondering if I could do better for a machine shop.

This is a picture of their hone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DnD_280_straight_hone.jpg (46.0 KB, 89 views)

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

Last edited by macbox; 07-07-2011 at 05:10 PM..

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Old 07-07-2011, 07:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

You can hone with 280 stones and then finish with a couple pases of a ball hone. The ball hone bends the tops of the roughness over to make a smoother surface that still holds oil. This sounds like an old tech shop and they sure can do the cleaning and measuring but I would be looking for the shop that has done a couple of Saturn engines and realizes that every type of ring has a slightly different cylinder prep requirement. Head rebuild is also well within there ability. Go to RockAuto and you can order all the gaskets. Who is getting the valve seals, you or them?

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Old 07-07-2011, 10:03 PM   #19
macbox
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1995 SC2
1997 SC2
Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

I've come to the conclusion that I need to go down there tomorrow morning, pick it up, and bring it to the other place I looked at that has a modern outlook.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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Old 07-08-2011, 10:37 AM   #20
macbox
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1995 SC2
1997 SC2
Default Re: 98SW2 Re-Ring project

Everything is now at the new shop. They asked a bunch of questions, use a 320 grit straight hone, and can help me out with rings and gaskets. I feel much better about leaving my engine with them.

...
#4, 1995 SC2m, 163K, 400 Miles per quart. Garage queen. Currently in 1000 pieces for a rebuild.
#5, 1998 SW2m, rebuilt at 126K, Totaled at 205K miles.
#6 1997 SC2a, 179K, Needs a new head.

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