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Old 05-02-2011, 10:07 PM   #1
pochejp
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Default 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Hey guys first post.

Wife has a 2006 Vue we bought new. A/C has always worked great but now we have a problem. It started out as a every now and then a/c blowing warm. Now the compressor will just click on when turned on but off a few seconds later.

I checked with gauges while the car is off. Suction pressure around 100 psi on 80 degree day. That should be plenty to run the compressor. I checked with the motor running and turn on the a/c. It sucks the pressure down to around 45 psi and then cuts off again. Pressure switch going bad maybe?

I jumped the compressor directly to the battery while running the car and it engages fine and stays engaged. Blows very cold while running like that at 2000 rpm's I read about 30 psi on suction and 150 discharge. Too low on refrige? Pressure switch? Any ideas? Should I add?

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Old 05-02-2011, 10:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Far too many people blame the pressure switch for the wrong reason and your situation may not be the pressure switch at all. Your Vue has another temperature switch in the HVAC box that detects too low a temperature to allow continued running. If allowed to run below approximately 37F, freezing conditions can cause icing to form to choke off air flow. The temperature sensor does the same job as the pressure switch; one detecting either too low a pressure or the other too low a temperature that disables compressor running. Both mean the same issue occurred; loss of refrigerant. Although the monitored pressures seem good the compressor cycling off and your bypass wiring with freezing conditions confirm loss of refrigerant. You now have a choice; either try looking for the source of the leak (dye and oil always marks a leak site) and decide how to repair it, remove the remaining refrigerant for recycling and repair the break correctly, evacuate the system then refill with the correct amount of R1234a or refill. Refilling a leaking system is like refilling a leaking tire. Your choice in dealing with the problem. The only accurate method to inject the correct amount of R134a is with an empty system. Refilling a partially empty system is risky unless you are familiar with using refrigeration gauges correctly while refilling. Over filling will lead to over pressurization and loading down the compressor and engine with possibilities of rupturing the system catastrophically. Under filling would be less cooling while stopped at lights.

Are you familiar with using service charts to correlate temperature/pressure measurement while monitoring the vent temps? I do not have specs for '06 Vues but I'm guessing they should be the same for '05 3.5L V6 engines. I can send pdf's if you pm an e-mail address.

Reading standing pressures with the engine/compressor off means absolutely nothing. Do you use the a/c when its OFF or when its ON? All pressures and temperatures are monitored at working engine rpm; for Saturns its 2k rpm. For the technical explanation you'll need to read a refrigeration textbook.

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Old 05-02-2011, 11:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Far too many people blame the pressure switch for the wrong reason and your situation may not be the pressure switch at all. Your Vue has another temperature switch in the HVAC box that detects too low a temperature to allow continued running. If allowed to run below approximately 37F, freezing conditions can cause icing to form to choke off air flow. The temperature sensor does the same job as the pressure switch; one detecting either too low a pressure or the other too low a temperature that disables compressor running. Both mean the same issue occurred; loss of refrigerant. Although the monitored pressures seem good the compressor cycling off and your bypass wiring with freezing conditions confirm loss of refrigerant. You now have a choice; either try looking for the source of the leak (dye and oil always marks a leak site) and decide how to repair it, remove the remaining refrigerant for recycling and repair the break correctly, evacuate the system then refill with the correct amount of R1234a or refill. Refilling a leaking system is like refilling a leaking tire. Your choice in dealing with the problem. The only accurate method to inject the correct amount of R134a is with an empty system. Refilling a partially empty system is risky unless you are familiar with using refrigeration gauges correctly while refilling. Over filling will lead to over pressurization and loading down the compressor and engine with possibilities of rupturing the system catastrophically. Under filling would be less cooling while stopped at lights.

Are you familiar with using service charts to correlate temperature/pressure measurement while monitoring the vent temps? I do not have specs for '06 Vues but I'm guessing they should be the same for '05 3.5L V6 engines. I can send pdf's if you pm an e-mail address.

Reading standing pressures with the engine/compressor off means absolutely nothing. Do you use the a/c when its OFF or when its ON? All pressures and temperatures are monitored at working engine rpm; for Saturns its 2k rpm. For the technical explanation you'll need to read a refrigeration textbook.
Thanks for the quick reply fdryer.

Didn't know there was another switch in the HVAC box but it doesn't run long enough for that to be a factor I wouldn't think. It clicks off in 3 to 4 seconds after engaging and not having the time to freeze or get to the temp you described. Then it won't re-engage unless I turn the car off and the ignition to off to reset.

I think I will try to refill the system at least once. I have a vacuum pump to pull it down so I can start from zero refige charge. I'll add the 24 oz. required. Should I add any oil?

I can read charts somewhat. I'm a machinist by trade so i'm mechanically inclined but do not proclaim to be an a/c expert as yourself. I see all of your posts.

Do you think thats the right thing to try? Buy some refrige with dye and install? I can get the blue lights from work. We use those to identify oil in oxygen clean service equipment we rebuild.

Ever come across a problem similar to this?

I'll PM you my email address.

Thanks,
JP

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Old 05-03-2011, 05:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

When you open the service ports you might see dye there (another potential leak area). Its already been added from the factory so its not needed. Same for oil. Oil is only needed if a large leak is found and its obvious otherwise it takes up room that's needed for R134a. There's only so much room for refrigerant and oil. Oil won't evaporate as easily as refrigerant would. Dye stays in the oil mix. Who knows, you might just get away with a top off charge and be done.

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Old 05-06-2011, 02:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

OK I did a new troubleshoot on this a/c system with a new gage set. The compressor will not stay running on its own after turning it on by the switch so I jumped it with 12 volts from the battery. Static I was reading about 150 psi before we turned it on. After I turned the system on the suction went to 20 -25 psi and the discharge to 425 -450 psi. Appears I have a plugged orifice. Anyone agree?

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Old 05-06-2011, 03:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

If you're going to post info, a/c info requires local temps and humidity to compare against published data of expected pressures. I sent you another chart, zone D with the low pressure about right but high pressure too high. There are no orifice tubes unless your '06 Vue went to a different way to control the flow into the evaporator coil. As far as I know, Saturns use thermal expansion valves that are just behind the two hose connections on the firewall. My data stops at '05 so you'll have to fnid out to be sure. The info I sent you are only for the '05 Vue.

Unless you over filled the system, carefully refilling from an empty system should have allowed monitoring as R134a was injected, stopping after several ounces were added to see what the pressures were showing. You might have seen abnormal pressures (on the high side) while the low side remained between 25-35psi without having to complete the refill. As it is and presuming a complete vacuum was done to rule out moisture skewing readings, its possible to have a stuck txv. I cannot be sure of this as there are few if any reports of stuck txv's, even when a vacuum wasn't done and recharging went ahead disregarding advise against this.

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Old 05-06-2011, 04:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
If you're going to post info, a/c info requires local temps and humidity to compare against published data of expected pressures. I sent you another chart, zone D with the low pressure about right but high pressure too high. There are no orifice tubes unless your '06 Vue went to a different way to control the flow into the evaporator coil. As far as I know, Saturns use thermal expansion valves that are just behind the two hose connections on the firewall. My data stops at '05 so you'll have to fnid out to be sure. The info I sent you are only for the '05 Vue.

Unless you over filled the system, carefully refilling from an empty system should have allowed monitoring as R134a was injected, stopping after several ounces were added to see what the pressures were showing. You might have seen abnormal pressures (on the high side) while the low side remained between 25-35psi without having to complete the refill. As it is and presuming a complete vacuum was done to rule out moisture skewing readings, its possible to have a stuck txv. I cannot be sure of this as there are few if any reports of stuck txv's, even when a vacuum wasn't done and recharging went ahead disregarding advise against this.
It is a TXV.

Outside temp was 77 degrees at 40% humidity.

I didn't do anything yet. Have not added or taken out. Just put a brand new set of gauges on it today and read it while running jumped directly from the battery.

Why the 450 psi discharge and only 25 psi suction? Thats at 2000 rpm.

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Old 05-06-2011, 05:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

By chance is there a cabin air filter that hasn't been replaced in a long time? If there is one and its completely clogged, very little air circulation can create lower temperatures than normal, triggering the low temperature sensor to disable the a/c compressor.

I'm still thinking about the higher than expected high pressures. Possible clogged front condenser coil? Fans not running when they should be?

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Old 05-06-2011, 05:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

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Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
By chance is there a cabin air filter that hasn't been replaced in a long time? If there is one and its completely clogged, very little air circulation can create lower temperatures than normal, triggering the low temperature sensor to disable the a/c compressor.

I'm still thinking about the higher than expected high pressures. Possible clogged front condenser coil? Fans not running when they should be?
No filter that I know of. Its not running long enough for that to be an issue.

Clogged condenser? Wouldn't that keep the suction pressure up due to it backing up? The fitting is downstream of the condenser but up stream of the TXV and evaporator so its going through the condenser. TXV appears to have it blocked.

Fans run immediately when the a/c is switch on. No problem there.

Doesn't the TXV have some kind of thermal moving slide valve made into it? I'm leaning hard to this being the problem.

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Old 05-06-2011, 06:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

There is a cabin filter - open hood and remove cover with RH windshield washer nozzle. The filter is used unless Recirc mode is selected.

I've attached extract from GM FSM A/C section pertaining to marginal low-side pressure and excess high side pressure.

Let me know if any of the referenced docs (blue print) would help. I can email as many as you want - so left-click on my screen name and use private message to send address.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 05 Vue - Zone D Extract.pdf (43.8 KB, 140 views)

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Old 05-06-2011, 06:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

From the '05 service manual (unless far2grumpy has '06 info);

Evaporator Low Ambient ProtectionThe refrigerant temperature at the temperature sensor in the thermal expansion valve (TXV) controls cycling of the compressor clutch to prevent freezing of the evaporator core. The compressor is disabled when the temperature goes below 3C (37F) and vehicle speed is greater than 8 km/h (5 mph). The compressor is enabled when the temperature exceeds 4C (40F). The minimum cycling time off is 4 seconds. For purposes of converting a voltage to a temperature value in the diagnosis of the temperature sensor located within the TXV at the inlet outlet of the Evaporator the following conversion chart has been inputted.

Once engaged, the compressor clutch will be disengaged for the following conditions:

L66/3.5L--Throttle position is 100 percent
L66/3.5L--A/C pressure is more than 2929 kPa (495 psi).
L66/3.5L--A/C pressure is less than 2706 kPa (39 psi).
L66/3.5L--Engine coolant temperature (ECT) is more than 120C (248F).
L66/3.5L--Engine speed is more than 6,240 RPM.

Transmission shift

ECM/PCM detects excessive torque load.
ECM/PCM detects insufficient idle quality.
ECM/PCM detects a hard launch condition.

The thermal expansion valve (TXV) is located at the evaporator inlet and outlet pipes. The TXV is the dividing point for the high and the low pressure sides of the A/C system. As the refrigerant passes through the TXV, the pressure on the refrigerant is lowered. Due to the pressure differential on the liquid refrigerant, the refrigerant will begin to boil at the TXV. The TXV also meters the amount of liquid refrigerant that can flow into the evaporator.

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Old 05-06-2011, 08:39 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

I compared basic 2006 text to MY 2005 noted no differences.

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Old 05-06-2011, 10:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
From the '05 service manual (unless far2grumpy has '06 info);

Evaporator Low Ambient ProtectionThe refrigerant temperature at the temperature sensor in the thermal expansion valve (TXV) controls cycling of the compressor clutch to prevent freezing of the evaporator core. The compressor is disabled when the temperature goes below 3C (37F) and vehicle speed is greater than 8 km/h (5 mph). The compressor is enabled when the temperature exceeds 4C (40F). The minimum cycling time off is 4 seconds. For purposes of converting a voltage to a temperature value in the diagnosis of the temperature sensor located within the TXV at the inlet outlet of the Evaporator the following conversion chart has been inputted.

Once engaged, the compressor clutch will be disengaged for the following conditions:

L66/3.5L--Throttle position is 100 percent
L66/3.5L--A/C pressure is more than 2929 kPa (495 psi).
L66/3.5L--A/C pressure is less than 2706 kPa (39 psi).
L66/3.5L--Engine coolant temperature (ECT) is more than 120C (248F).
L66/3.5L--Engine speed is more than 6,240 RPM.

Transmission shift

ECM/PCM detects excessive torque load.
ECM/PCM detects insufficient idle quality.
ECM/PCM detects a hard launch condition.

The thermal expansion valve (TXV) is located at the evaporator inlet and outlet pipes. The TXV is the dividing point for the high and the low pressure sides of the A/C system. As the refrigerant passes through the TXV, the pressure on the refrigerant is lowered. Due to the pressure differential on the liquid refrigerant, the refrigerant will begin to boil at the TXV. The TXV also meters the amount of liquid refrigerant that can flow into the evaporator.

Thanks guys. Must be the low pressure taking it out. I'm going to evac the system, pull vac and then recharge. Maybe stuck TXV. Won't cost me anything as I have everything on hand already. I'll post back what happens.

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Old 05-06-2011, 11:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Please verify (for your Vue) R134a amount as labeled in the engine area. R134a and oil amount is printed.

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Old 06-18-2011, 03:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

*****************PROBLEM FIXED*****************

TXV valve was bad. Spring broken and the little ball looking part that sits on top of it was broken as well. Also changed the drier because I opened the system.

Pulled vacuum on it for an hour or so after I ran a small bottle of N2 through it to help dry it out. Added 28 oz of 134a and it works like new. All pressures are perfect now.

Hope this thread can help someone that has similar problems.


JP

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Old 06-18-2011, 03:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2006 Vue V-6 A/C Problem

Thanks for the follow up. Any way to post the damaged tvx for show and tell? I've never seen, read or experienced one. I'm studying a puzzle on a '97 Volkswagon Jetta issue.

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