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Old 11-21-2010, 09:44 PM   #1
gmman1978
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2001 SC2
Default 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC



I have a no spark problem. My father and I have so far checked all the wires for the crank sensor and the test out withing spec according to the book. Also we perfomed a resistance test on the crank sensor itself and it is within specification. We also have done resistance tests on all the grounds.

The fuel pump is running and making the correct amount of fuel pressure. We have also done the spark test at the coil packs and there is no fire. We have checked for power at the control module and it has twelve volts. Also have checked the ground and the wires at the control module and how they are suppse to have at least 200 millivots while the engine is cranking which it does. Yet there is still no fire. I went and borrowed a new ignition control module and still no fire. Also we checked the resistance of the coil packs and they are withing spec. Still no fire.

What happend is my starter stopped working. I know the starter was bad because when it started acting up I pulled the starter out and checked the brushes they were gone. I bought a brand new by the part number starter off of ebay. The starter cranks the engine over great. Now I have a no spark issue. Most often than not with this issue with a saturn it is the crank sensor. Mine checks out within spec and the wiring has been check over for hours for brakes and chaffing etc.

I was thinking maybe the PCM has gone good bye. In the book I have it says a good way to know if the PCM is bad is that the check engine light on the dash won't stay on when you turn they key on. I would think that that light coming on is just tellling you that the PCM has power?

Now my next question is when installing a used PCM from a salvage yard what is entailed with doing this install correctly. It is my last thing that could be causing my no spark problem.

Yes I have checked the resistance of the spark plug wires and removed all grounds and cleaned and refastened them. I have not checked the wires around the BCM as of yet. I have not replaced the ignition switch either. I have not tested the switch. I don't have any information in my repair manual on how to test the ignition switch. I would figure if it was bad the car wouldn't turn over? I have checked all fuses and relays also.

Any Suggestions would be outstanding... Install information on the PCM would be fantastic

Thanks Victor

A little background on my father and I's automotive experiance. Father has been working on cars successfully for fifty years or more. I have fifteen years experiance. This car is just baffleing because everything is there saying the car should have fire but it doesn't? I have no clue how just replacing a starter could cause the car to loose spark?

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Old 11-21-2010, 11:06 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

First things first. Starters never affect EFI systems and you most likely have more than one problem. The pcm can be determined good or bad with a simple test as well as checking everything else electronic but in sequence. Even with knowledge of auto electrical systems, this may not be enough if not grounded in electronic fuel injection basics and GM's factory theft deterrent system that immobilizes the fuel pump and ignition system.

Begin with the ignition ON sequence; all EFI electronics start with power applied to all the mini computers that begin power up self tests and if completed successfully, do nothing. Yes, nothing. Its always expected to have no computer issues so these self tests are automatically performed at every ignition ON step. The indications of this power up self test; all the instrument panel lights turn on for a few seconds as part of lamp tests while the pcm/bcm/ABS/air bag system perform their own self tests. When all the i/p lights turn off leaving the seat belt/oil/battery/e-brake lights on, all the other computers have completed their own tests, waiting for you to turn the ignition switch to START. While all this is going on the security system in the bcm is checking the pcm; if something goes wrong the security light will either stay ON or flash after the i/p lamps turn off to indicate a security issue has been enabled and the bcm disables the fuel pump and ignition system from operating. Usually a flashing security indicator indicates the car is disbled from firing up. The starter will work to turn the engine over but the engine won't fire up.

Observing all the "idiot" lights and understanding what they do, when they turn on and off and if the SES light remains on or flashes during starting are all indications to interpret the state of the EFI system. There's a lot going on when lights simply turn on and off in the instrument panel.

Last edited by fdryer; 11-21-2010 at 11:11 PM..

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Old 11-21-2010, 11:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

All the lights what not on the dash do what they are suppose to do. The security light doesn't flash or anything while turning the key or after all the test lights etc go out on the dash after the key has been on for a bit. I don't think that the security system is the issue. I listened to the fuel pump while turning the engine and it is running. Thanks for the suggestion. There is power going to the ignition control module, the fuel pump is working, but there is zero fire. I am in the process of tracing and checking the wires for the BCM. I know there is a trouble spot for the wires where they come inside the car for the BCM that has been seen them wear through or brake. I will look into testing the security system also. The repair manual that is affordable is a piece of crap. I am saving to get the actual saturn repair manual which is quite expensive. The Haynes sucks. The book really doesn't cover the 2001. It has good information on the older models.

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Old 11-21-2010, 11:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

For a small yearly fee you can subscribe to alldata and have all the information second to owning the service manuals. Some public libraries have this for free. There are e-bay dvd's made, pirate or not, that may work but are questionable. And there are pirate sites where you can download almost all the GM service manuals courtesy of someone providing this info..........

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Old 11-22-2010, 05:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Unfourtunatlty I have tried the DVD avenue for service information. What it gives you is a gerneralized information on a saturn. I have noticed the connectors for the ignition control module changed the amount of pins at about 1999. Which makes my book useless because it describes tests on a connector with five pins and mine has six. Even the color of wires asked to check are not the same. Also the book is suppose to have wiring diagrams for all saturns 95 - 2002 which it doesn't. I will check into the alldata thing.

I think my father is going to install the new crank sensor tonight. If that doesn't solve the no spark issue I have zero clue what will. I know it is going to cost to have a BCM programmed for my car as well as a new PCM. Both parts are not expensive to buy used with money back gurentee's.

I just don't understand how installing a new starter would cause the car to loose spark. Everything I took apart I put back the same way it was. Looking for any damage along the way. Car ran 100 percent before.

Any suggestions would help. Going to check the wires going to the BCM tommorow.

All the lights on the dash do all the things they are suppose to do. The security light doesn't flash.

Thanks Victor

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Old 11-22-2010, 06:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

A long shot but you never know. Check that you did`nt somehow snag the CPS wire when you replaced the starter.

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Old 11-22-2010, 07:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Below is one wiring diagram for your '01 SC2. As you can see, the icm and cps connect to the pcm. Despite reading resistance on the cps, this seems cps related. The cps should read between 700-1200 ohms.

Its hard to prove a failed pcm as they rarely fail.
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Old 11-22-2010, 09:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at all the wires around the cps and the starter for any sort of damage. Also tested most of them with a voltmeter. Spent hours.

Now how do I go about testing the wires for the CPS. While cranking the engine or with just the key on?

Also if I were to replace the ECM what is entailed in doing that correctly?

Thanks Victor.

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Old 11-23-2010, 12:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

A simple continuity test between each cps wire connector to the pcm should reveal two solid connections; J1-30 would be the purple wire, J1-08 for the yellow wire. This can as easy as simply looking for yellow and purple wires to one of the pcm connections and diving in to check continuity for each wire. Remove all power before doing any tests on the pcm. As far as measuring cps output, it may not be seen on a digital multimeter as the voltage pulses will vary as the engine is cranked (pulling the spark plugs will lessen the load on the starter while allowing a higher speed for better signal pulses). From the service manual; The CKP sensor is located in the back of the engine block near the starter motor. It produces an AC voltage of different amplitude, as high as 125 volts, and frequency depending on the velocity of the crankshaft. The crankshaft has 7 machined notches, 6 of which are spaced 60 degrees apart. The remaining notch is 10 degrees before the #4 cylinder top dead center (TDC) notch. The extra notch is used by the PCM to determine the position of the #4 cylinder and is necessary to synchronize engine position. The CKP sensor is used for fuel delivery, spark timing, misfire diagnostics and tachometer display. If you're familiar with varying signal voltages you may be able to read a dvm but an oscilloscope is better to see the actual wave form. Plus it helps to know what a good signal looks like as a reference wave form to compare against a suspect cps. If in doubt just replace the cps.

Finding a replacement pcm shouldn't be difficult as long as it matches your configuration; automatic, cruise control, etc.. There will be a procedure required to perform a 30 minute relearn of the replacement pcm to the bcm for security as part of the anti-theft system. Search for the procedure as its very easy to do. This is basically a manual step by step routine to allow the bcm to recognize the new guy in the electronics in order for the theft deterrent system to work again. In laymans terms this is exactly as "Hello my name is.....Oh, hi I'm......and once the formal time out is done an electronic handshake occurs to exchange a fuel password that becomes part of the power up self tests every time the ignition is turned ON. The married parts now communicate immediately and starting is allowed. No relearn procedure results in the flashing security light turning on immediately and the engine will never fire up. The starter can crank all day but the engine won't fire up; the fuel password wasn't learned because the 'foreign' pcm wasn't introduced formally via the 30 minute relearn routine.

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Old 11-23-2010, 03:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

The crank sensor has been replaced. I will check the wires for the crank sensor to the ECM to see if they have continuity. With replacing the crank sensors and the tests I have done on the control module wires most everything is doing what it is suppose to except firing. I have yet to check the wires to the computer. Going to be difficult because the wires start under the car and then the ECM is up near the battery. I don't know if the test leads for my multimeter are long enough. Now that you have given me a schematic that has the correct wire colors and the right amount or wires going to the control module I may be able to figure something out. Unfourtunatly I don't have osciliscope. I was just hoping to get away from pay labor to a dealer to relearn the PCM when I install it. I know I have zero way to reprogram a used BCM. Also finding a saturn mechanic is difficult seeing how it all has gone to your friendly GM dealer. I will look around and see if I can find the learn procedure for the PCM. I don't think the PCM is the issue. I still think it is a broken wire somewhere. Just two more wires to test to really know.

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Old 11-23-2010, 06:22 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Test lead length shouldn't concern you as you can always use another length of wire to extend any test lead. For continuity testing I often use the audible portion of my meter to simply tell me if a wire or circuit is broken where I don't have to be concerned about resistance; as long as a wire is conductive the audible test feature will beep (not loudly). A broken wire won't and makes a continuity test easier than trying to read and interpret resistance measurements of a wire disappearing someplace. You're interested in continuity, not resistance since the longer the wire, slightly higher resistance will occur and can cloud or distract what you're trying to do, check for broken wiring.

If you need to add another length of wire to extend one test lead, be sure to make it a secure connection so this doesn't come apart and add confusion to testing. Just touch the extended lead to the other test probe and check using either the audible test or resistance test and note any slight change in resistance as a reference then go and use your modified meter with confidence.

With parts that are inaccessible it pays to measure them before installation. Did you measure the cps resistance before and after? At this point a misstep can lead to running around in circles. Been there done that..........not good.

Last edited by fdryer; 11-23-2010 at 06:27 PM..

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Old 11-23-2010, 10:13 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Test lead length shouldn't concern you as you can always use another length of wire to extend any test lead. For continuity testing I often use the audible portion of my meter to simply tell me if a wire or circuit is broken where I don't have to be concerned about resistance; as long as a wire is conductive the audible test feature will beep (not loudly). A broken wire won't and makes a continuity test easier than trying to read and interpret resistance measurements of a wire disappearing someplace. You're interested in continuity, not resistance since the longer the wire, slightly higher resistance will occur and can cloud or distract what you're trying to do, check for broken wiring.

If you need to add another length of wire to extend one test lead, be sure to make it a secure connection so this doesn't come apart and add confusion to testing. Just touch the extended lead to the other test probe and check using either the audible test or resistance test and note any slight change in resistance as a reference then go and use your modified meter with confidence.

With parts that are inaccessible it pays to measure them before installation. Did you measure the cps resistance before and after? At this point a misstep can lead to running around in circles. Been there done that..........not good.
I would just like to add that some multimeters vary in terms of what they deem is acceptable while testing in continuity mode.
I`ve seen meters beep with resistances as high as 200 ohms in those modes.
I would personally use the lowest ohms scale if not using an auto ranging unit.
Keep us posted

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Old 11-23-2010, 10:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Yes we tested the new crank position sensor before my father installed it while I was at work. Only thing I haven't done is check the wires going to the PCM for the crank sensor. I have sent the schematic to my father. He has his mind set that the PCM is gone. I don't even know for sure if the PCM is plug and play or not. I have not been able to locate the process for the thirty minute learn time for installation of a used PCM. Yes I bought a use guranteed PCM off of ebaymotors for cheap. Still kinda baffeled how just changing a starter with the battery unhooked could cause the car to loose spark? I had the battery unhooked for about a hour and unhook various times while installing new sensors. The PCM doesn't have a relearn time it has to go through every time you have the battery unhooked for so long does it? The new starter works fine just no spark. I don't have a real expensive multimeter. It is just one with the metal probes. I don't have one with the audible option.

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Old 11-23-2010, 11:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Here's the relearn procedure;

30 Minute Learn Procedure
1. Turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.
2. Attempt to start the engine, then release the key to ON, vehicle will not start.
3. Observe the SECURITY telltale light, after approximately 10 minutes the telltale light will turn OFF.
4. Turn OFF the ignition, and wait 5 seconds.
Repeat steps 1 through 4 two more times for a total of 3 cycles/30 minutes, the vehicle is now ready to relearn the Passlock Sensor Data Code and/or passwords on the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK.

Important
The vehicle learns the Passlock Sensor Data Code and/or password on the next ignition switch transition from OFF to CRANK. You must turn the ignition OFF before attempting to start the vehicle.

Start the engine. The vehicle has now learned the Passlock Sensor Data Code and/or password.

The search feature here leaves a lot to be desired and needs a few tries before an answer can be found.

As far as using you meter without the audible feature, you can still add an extension to reach long wires; just read the total resistance with the two, extended wires attached for a base reading - do this several times to reach an average number as this becomes the new 'zero' resistance with the extended wires. As mentioned before, reading resistance can be inaccurate or misleading as you're sole concern is to see if there's either a complete break in one or more wires in a harness or if there's resistance; resistance with next to zero readings is the same as a good wire without a break. Looked at it another way, assuming you are measuring one specific wire for continuity you can use a small flashlight battery and bulb and create a switch using the wire you're checking as the connection.

A flashlight battery, light and two wires with one end of each wire attached to safety pins can now be used to test any wire that doesn't have any power to it; pierce one end of the harness wire in question with one safety pin and the other pin piercing any part of this wire along the whole length; a battery, two wires with safety pins and a bulb becomes a simple flashlight using the harness wire you're testing for continiuty. This may be easier to explain than to imagine but if you think about it all I'm describing is a simple battery powered light with safety pins to act as the switch and piercing any insulated wire to reach the conductors to allow this light to be used as a continuity tester. A wire is a wire and will conduct electricity regardless of voltage or minimal resistance. Your testing plain wires that will conduct flashlight battery voltage to power the bulb. When the bulb lights up you've confirmed continuity without concern for resistance.

PM me an e-mail address for more info if you like. I'll need an address that will accept attachments, pdf's, etc..

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Old 11-24-2010, 12:40 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Going to test the wires for the computer where the crank sensor leads into the computer and any other wires associated. Not a fan of piercing wires on a computer controled car. I just probe the back side of the connector with a paperclip or a small cotter pin.

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Old 11-25-2010, 01:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

Well my father found the problem with the car. Chalk one up to assembly line thinking over real world working.

Poorly positioned wire for the CPS to computer broke near the bell housing. My father repositioned it in a better place with a longer lenth of wire where it won't brake again from the motion of the engine. Yes my engine mounts are all performance or factory new.

So if anyone has this no fire issue start digging in the huge mass of wires that run over the top of the bell housing. You will find one in there broken due to poor engineering.

Thank You so much for all of you help. If there is anything I can help with email me vmandy@nycap.rr.com

Thanks

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Old 11-25-2010, 01:44 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn Sc2 DOHC

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