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Old 11-12-2010, 09:29 AM   #1
bumpdraft
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Default Rear Pillar Leak

1998 SC2 Rear Pillar Leak

Has anyone had experience with the Removal of the Roof Outer Drip Rail?

From the FactoryServiceManual, I get the impression I have to remove the Quarter Glass in order to access the screws holding the Roof Outer Drip Rail.

Is this true? (notice how I did not use any profanity? TheMedicationIsWorking)

Here is the Leak test. Water started dripping into the Trunk (see pic below) when I set the hose at this location:


Here is an action shot of water entering the trunk and dripping onto the Rear Strut tower /Fender Inner:


Here is the Drip Rail I would like to remove:

Last edited by bumpdraft; 11-12-2010 at 09:40 AM.. Reason: added Drip Rail from FSM

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Old 11-12-2010, 09:47 AM   #2
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Can the molding be pulled off the Quarter Window Successfully?
We are going to find out!

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Old 11-12-2010, 03:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

I believe the molding is glued to the glass. See if it will peel down far enough to get at the screws. Low Saturn is the knowledgeable one on this.

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Old 11-12-2010, 05:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
I believe the molding is glued to the glass. See if it will peel down far enough to get at the screws. Low Saturn is the knowledgeable one on this.
Thank you.
Any help from Low Saturn will be greatly appreciated.

We're expecting a few more days of perfect fall weather and now's the time to fix the leak.

I have a new tube of clear GE Silicone I could squirt in there, but I don't want to goober everything up.

If i can get in there, I could re-form the rain gutter using 3M Window Weld (I have a new tube of that too)

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Old 11-12-2010, 05:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

I had water leaking into the trunk at the botom corner of the glass where caulking cracked and exposed a seam. You have to remove the rear quarter panel to see it. Did you rule that possibilty out? http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=138305
After a couple of months afterwards I removed the quarter panel on the driver's side and put silicone over the caulk to prevent future leaks on that side.

...
It's GOOD to have a spare!

Last edited by termite; 11-12-2010 at 05:41 PM..

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Old 11-12-2010, 06:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

IIRC, this is actually a quarter panel seal issue. There's a TSB, with a procedure for removing the quarter panel and re-sealing something; applies to coupes only. There should be threads here on SF somewhere about it.

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Old 11-12-2010, 06:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Thanks for the clue....

BULLETIN NO.: 96-T-15A

ISSUE DATE: February, 1999

GROUP/SEQ. NO.: Body-06

CORPORATION NO.: 99-08-57-017
SUBJECT:
Waterleaks into Rear Luggage Compartment Area
(Identify Area of Waterleak and Repair)

Due to a revision under Models Affected, this bulletin supercedes bulletin 96-T-15, which should be discarded.
MODELS AFFECTED:
1996-1999 Saturn Sedans

CONDITION:
The rear luggage compartment carpet is wet and/or has a musty, mildew odor.

CAUSE:
This condition may be caused by voids in the body seam sealer at either the quarter/D-ring joint, rear seat-to-back window panel reinforcement joint, and/or tail panel/quarter joint.

CORRECTION:
Identify waterleak area and repair according to procedure in this bulletin.

This TSB deals with the seams that are exposed when you remove the quarter panel. Are you sure that you are not seeing water run down the window and into the horizontal seam witch runs out the hole right above where you were showing water? I think you get to pull the quarter panel.

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Old 11-12-2010, 09:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Thanks for the clue....

BULLETIN NO.: 96-T-15A

ISSUE DATE: February, 1999

GROUP/SEQ. NO.: Body-06

CORPORATION NO.: 99-08-57-017
SUBJECT:
Waterleaks into Rear Luggage Compartment Area
(Identify Area of Waterleak and Repair)

Due to a revision under Models Affected, this bulletin supercedes bulletin 96-T-15, which should be discarded.
MODELS AFFECTED:
1996-1999 Saturn Sedans

CONDITION:
The rear luggage compartment carpet is wet and/or has a musty, mildew odor.

CAUSE:
This condition may be caused by voids in the body seam sealer at either the quarter/D-ring joint, rear seat-to-back window panel reinforcement joint, and/or tail panel/quarter joint.

CORRECTION:
Identify waterleak area and repair according to procedure in this bulletin.

This TSB deals with the seams that are exposed when you remove the quarter panel. Are you sure that you are not seeing water run down the window and into the horizontal seam witch runs out the hole right above where you were showing water? I think you get to pull the quarter panel.
If Saturn had made enough wagons, they probably would have a TSB on leaks in the cargo area as well. I've had them in the roof seams near the hinges, and in the area behind the tail lights. Whoever made that seam sealer ought to be shot. Either that, my wagon went though the body shop on the Monday morning after a holiday weekend!!!!

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Old 11-12-2010, 09:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Seam sealer technology has advanced markedly in the last 15 years or so. Today you go to the big box lumber store an buy a big tube of the urethane roof caulk and after removing the old seam sealer you use that stuff. End of problem. Or, if you insist, you get the exact same stuff labeled 3M Urethane Seam Sealer for about 3 times as much $$. Both work fine. RTV will not last more than 1 or 2 years....

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Old 11-13-2010, 05:33 AM   #10
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by termite View Post
I had water leaking into the trunk at the botom corner of the glass where caulking cracked and exposed a seam. You have to remove the rear quarter panel to see it. Did you rule that possibilty out? http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=138305
After a couple of months afterwards I removed the quarter panel on the driver's side and put silicone over the caulk to prevent future leaks on that side.
Thanks, but I did that twice on this side of the car.
The second time, I used 3M Windoweld
with a pair of rubber gloves and a spatula...and buttered everything very well.
^That^ is the actual tube I used. Notice all the sealer smeared on the gun?

here's the first time I re-sealed this area:
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...eak4/cat/12591

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
IIRC, this is actually a quarter panel seal issue. There's a TSB, with a procedure for removing the quarter panel and re-sealing something; applies to coupes only. There should be threads here on SF somewhere about it.
In my Water Test, I made sure to start low (on the trunk) and let water run for a while.

Only when moving up to the location shown did it start raining in the trunk.

Here's the rust tracks from the leak described in the TSB:
http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/sho...eak1/cat/12591

Last edited by bumpdraft; 11-13-2010 at 05:42 AM..

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Old 11-13-2010, 05:55 AM   #11
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak


The plastic lip of the Roof Outer Drip Rail "gaps" in this area. - Meaning, the plastic sealing strip isn't touching the glass in the area about an inch down from the metal roof...
...so, water is rushing under the Roof Outer Drip Rail and down the "valley" of the roof pillar.
My guess is there's salty mud in there and it eventually rusted thru something. This car's been sitting outside for 12+ years.

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Old 11-13-2010, 08:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

The BODY manual should tell you how to get that quarter window out of there. That is not the standard leak point. there is a thin urethane window glass seal setting sealer. I have "fixed" leaks like that by carefully injecting this hateful liquid into the opening and allowing god and gravity to finish the installation. Takes several shots to get them closed up though. You may be able to see back into the underside of the leaking area through that hole the water is running out of. You have to keep on top of cleanup at the point of injection as when the sealer cures there is no further removal possible.

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Old 11-13-2010, 11:47 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The BODY manual should tell you how to get that quarter window out of there. That is not the standard leak point. there is a thin urethane window glass seal setting sealer. I have "fixed" leaks like that by carefully injecting this hateful liquid into the opening and allowing god and gravity to finish the installation. Takes several shots to get them closed up though. You may be able to see back into the underside of the leaking area through that hole the water is running out of. You have to keep on top of cleanup at the point of injection as when the sealer cures there is no further removal possible.
If I remove the glass from this side...then I might be able to use the thin urethane on the driver's side. I've had water in the trunk well of the driver's side too. I have an old can of Windo-Weld Resealant (Flow Grade) P/N 05113508633 that might work.

Back to the pasenger side:
Inside the car in the back seat; looking at the rear corner of the rear quarter glass.
Notice the rust.
Water is getting into the steel roof pillar.

I will need to remove the glass to operate on the cancerous rust. It should not be too hard. Luke Skywalker: "I'm not afraid!" Yoda: "You will be. You WILL be."

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Old 11-13-2010, 12:27 PM   #14
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Time for POR-15 and POR-PATCH. Just as an example I have a 25 gallon diesel fuel tank that some idiot hard piped to a frame mounted fuel filter. The tank is mounted on springs. So, a circumferential crack developed in the bottom of the tank around the 3/4" IP fuel outlet. It is impossible to remove the tank unless you dismantle the machine off of it. So, the next step was to attempt to weld the crack with a stinger welder - Epic Fail. A temp/permanent tank was mounted. I found this temp tank ascetically unpleasing as it was mounted to the back of the cab and I wanted to be rid of the cab on this machine. There is no access to this crack with a welder so I layered in a layer of POR-15 soaked fine mesh fiberglass cloth on teh inside of teh tank and let it cure. Then filled the remaining gouges, burn holes and crack from the outside with POR-PATCH. After that cured I layered on both the inside and outside 2 more layers of POR-15 and fiberglass. Wen that cured a skim coat of POR-PATCH on both sides. Holds diesel fuel just fine. Could not actually get at all of the damaged area without long handled brushes and tools from either side.

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Old 11-13-2010, 12:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

^good stuff!

When I get around to it, I will remove the window and let all know what happened.
I do not want to pour anything over the salty leaf debris/road slime that might be in there as it might block drainage and cause rust further upstream.

For now, I have a 70 watt boat dryer and 18 watt 105cfm computer fan that will dry everything after a rain.
(I think of it as an electric hybrid that gets plugged in at night)

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Old 02-15-2011, 03:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Here is an update to the drip:

With the help of a bad driver, I am now completely disassembling the SC2

The Roof Exterior Trim Drip Molding fastens over the rear Quarter Glass with Torx T-15 screws.
(As far as I can tell, the only way to access the screws is by removing the glass)

The T-15 screws thread into plastic (Nylon?) Inserts that sit in holes in the steel roof pillar. The holes in the steel roof pillar are made watertight by foam gaskets.
The pic is a little blurry
You can see the rectangular Inserts

FROM WHAT I SEE, the leak is coming from water seeping around the plastic Inserts. - Made worse by debris (mud) accumulation underneath the Roof Drip Molding.
I expected to see rust holes, but there are no rust holes. There is one small rusty spot up under the roof panel (not shown), but no rust around the window.
Other than leaking around the Inserts, I see nothing to explain water dripping onto the carpet over the rear strut tower

So, it might be possible to stop the leak by goobering sealant inside the roof pillar from the inside of the car....after removing the interior trim.

Last edited by bumpdraft; 02-15-2011 at 04:05 AM..

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Old 02-15-2011, 08:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Wow, a torx bolt going into a nylon square nut, trapped in place by a piece of stationary glass. The kind of design you generally don't see on our cars.

I thought you were relegating that car to parts donor status.....

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Old 02-15-2011, 08:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Wow, a torx bolt going into a nylon square nut, trapped in place by a piece of stationary glass. The kind of design you generally don't see on our cars
They had to do something completely screwed-up! And I think I found it.
If you were completely desperate, you might be able to cut a hole where the screws are. Then, fix them with WindoWeld and a finish coat of RTV??

QUESTION Please:
Can I purchase the Rear Quarter Glass Encapsulaton (rubber trim) as a seperate part? - or, do I have to buy the entire Quarter Glass? (because I completely butchered the encapsulation when I cut out the glass. Note: I just bought a WK4ZVRS blade, so it won't happen again)


Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
I thought you were relegating that car to parts donor status.....
Donor to me I will put the good parts on the good body I bought in AR...meaning I am putting everything including my wiring and PCM in the good body since I have no idea of the condition of the 270,000 mile SC2 from AR.

The parts from AR might go to Donor. Although, there are a LOT of great parts on it I will keep. The ground squirrels in the shed are going to have to move over and make room

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

For any doubters, here is a picture of the fix for BULLETIN NO.: 96-T-15A



and a better picture of the Nylon Inserts



The reason I'm removing the glass is I want the Roof Panel to put on the other body and eliminate its worn out Sun Roof.

Windsheild came off without breaking it
Hoping I can save the Rear Glass wihout wrecking the Defroster Grid

Last edited by bumpdraft; 02-15-2011 at 03:06 PM..

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Old 02-15-2011, 05:56 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rear Pillar Leak

One more pic with the glass removed:

The Nylon Inserts are loose. - Like the foam gaskets shrunk or were glued to the Nylon.
I could see where debris/crud would lift the trim just enough to slightly tip the Inserts and let water enter.

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