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Old 03-21-2010, 10:39 PM   #1
Mgg4591
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Default I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

OK THEN! My new radiator is coming in on Tuesday and my rebuilt valve body with the Sonnax seals should be here by the end of the week, hopefully. In the mean time i found SOMETHING ELSE that is wrong/busted. It seems like the only thing that this car HASN'T done is blow up into a million pieces. Don't worry, that will probably happen after everything else is fixed.

Anyway, enough of my rambling and on to the issue at hand. Today i looked into why one of my motor mount studs looked to be backed out a few turns in comparison to the other two, as pointed out by Madpogue in another thread i posted. The car has been vibrating alot more in drive and reverse since my reverse bang started up again a few weeks ago.



I started to remove the bolt, and as i did the stud starting turning first. So i removed the stud with the bolt attached. I looked down the hole and all the threads from inside the timing cover end are sitting at the bottom, the bolt is fine.




I put the bolt and nut back the best as i could, but it can still be wiggled back and forth. The stud just keeps turning, and turning, AND TURNING!:tear

In other news, i cannot even remove the mount because i don't have an impact wrench and the bottom mount bolts WILL NOT BUDGE. I tried a socket wrench with a piece of pipe and a 15mm socket, but the socket decided to give way before the bolt. I feel the bolt is not going anywhere because even with all my weight pushing against it, the socket just slipped off. I didn't try again because i did not want to completely strip the bolt.



So what is the CHEAPEST and EASIEST way to fix these issues aside from selling the car. Though if it wasn't for this site, it would be looooong gone as the labor rates at a garage would of had me heading for the hills.

I blame the dealer i got the car from for this one because that bolt has looked like that since i bought the car from them, and the mechanic said he replaced the mount when i went in for my reverse slam issue. He probably stripped it then, and the reverse slam finished it off. If they would of just fixed the slam instead of performing Wolfman's method, this all could of been avoided and i wouldn't have to replace the valve body now, and the timing cover probably wouldn't be stripped. I guess that's what you get when you have a group of Toyota mechanics work on your Saturn.

So tell me forum, what do you think is going to go next?

...
2002 Mitsubishi Galant 2.4, 94,500 miles
2007 Toyota Camry 2.4, 29,600 miles
1999 Saturn SL2 1.9, 93,700 miles

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Old 03-21-2010, 10:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Get the chips out of the bottom of the hole and then go to the parts store, NAPA or any other one and buy a metric helicoli kit for the size of the stud. Then helicoil it.

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Old 03-21-2010, 10:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Get the chips out of the bottom of the hole and then go to the parts store, NAPA or any other one and buy a metric helicoli kit for the size of the stud. Then helicoil it.
What about removing the bottom bolts? I may have to replace the mount as it fails richpin's pen test.

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Old 03-21-2010, 10:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

The threads are gone, as you found them in the bottom of the hole. There are only two, maybe three repairs available.

1-Heli-coil insert where the exact same threads are put back in using a special tap and screwing in a steel replacement thread. This repairs the stripped hole to like-new condition. If the hole is too large for the insert, you have two choices left.

2-If the hole is long enough to drill through for a longer stud, drill and tap for a longer stud if you can find a longer stud or make one. After cleaning the tapped hole and inserting the longer stud, epoxy the void with JB weld.

3-Drill and tap for the next size stud and drill the engine mount to accomodate the larger hole.

And I've used this (below) hand impact tool over the years instead of investing in an air compressor and all the expensive goodies. It works.

Its not the end of the world. That's tomorrow or next year, whatever.
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Old 03-22-2010, 06:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Soak your stuck bolts with PB Blaster. Let them soak 24 hours or longer while you shop for heli-coil kit. Those bolts should come out no problem. Use a good 6 pt. deep well socket (15MM).

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Old 03-22-2010, 09:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

There should be no bolts involved. There are three studs, like the one you removed, in the timing cover, and two studs integrated with the bracket on the body. It sounds like you can't remove the nuts on those two body-side studs. You'll just need a bigger lever, a six-point socket of course (you're not using any inch-size sockets, are you?), and if you actually broke a socket in the attempt, you'll need an impact socket. You won't need an impact driver, just a breaker bar with a big enough pipe slipped on it.

All the while, you _do_ have a jack and a block of wood under the oil pan, right?

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Old 03-22-2010, 01:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Well i left the nut soaking overnight in penetrating oil then tried again this morning. I used a 6 point socket as the first time with a breaker bar and pipe. With all my might i was pulling the breaker bar but it slipped over the thread again and it seems like now it's stripped. I was going to go to the junkyard and pick up that whole bracket assembly if possible because it seems that that is the only way the mount is going to come out. I can't do anything until i get that mount off.

In addition when the socket slipped my right hand went with it and i backhanded the a/c compressor bracket. It hurt like hell and now my hand looks like this.


I'm gonna go get it checked out.

...
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2007 Toyota Camry 2.4, 29,600 miles
1999 Saturn SL2 1.9, 93,700 miles

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Old 03-22-2010, 01:47 PM   #8
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Hey, "I feel your pain". I dropped a (don't laugh) pickup truck tailgate on my foot yesterday. It has swelled to aprx. the size of Ames, IA. But swelled up is one thing, red is another; that ^^^^ _might_ be some kind of infection. Did you ice it ASAP after the, uh, event (like I should have with my foot )?

If the threads are stripped (talking about the body side of the mount now), the nut would just spin. The socket doesn't engage the threads, it engages the flats of the nut. If you used a six-point socket, and it's "jumping" on the flats, it's possible you've cracked the socket, but yeah, it's also possible you've rounded the nut. If the former, as said, get a stronger (e.g. impact) socket. If it's the latter, there are several brands of extractor sockets these days, with "teeth" that bite into rounded bolt/nut heads to remove them. Sears/Craftsman makes one called "Bolt-out", and Irwin, Stanley and even Harbor Freight have entries as well. But again, make sure it's the right, metric six-point socket.

What penetrating oil did you use? Kroil and PB Blaster are the preferred ones. The "yellow can" Liquid Wrench is so-so; not nearly as aggressive as PB.

It may also call for heat.

Alas, I think your only alternative is to remove the whole bracket as you say, but IIRC, those bolts face the passenger side on the side of the rail, between the rail and the engine, and there's VERY little room in there.

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Old 03-22-2010, 02:04 PM   #9
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Hey, "I feel your pain". I dropped a (don't laugh) pickup truck tailgate on my foot yesterday. It has swelled to aprx. the size of Ames, IA. But swelled up is one thing, red is another; that ^^^^ _might_ be some kind of infection. Did you ice it ASAP after the, uh, event (like I should have with my foot )?

If the threads are stripped (talking about the body side of the mount now), the nut would just spin. The socket doesn't engage the threads, it engages the flats of the nut. If you used a six-point socket, and it's "jumping" on the flats, it's possible you've cracked the socket, but yeah, it's also possible you've rounded the nut. If the former, as said, get a stronger (e.g. impact) socket. If it's the latter, there are several brands of extractor sockets these days, with "teeth" that bite into rounded bolt/nut heads to remove them. Sears/Craftsman makes one called "Bolt-out", and Irwin, Stanley and even Harbor Freight have entries as well. But again, make sure it's the right, metric six-point socket.

I didn't even try the nut by the firewall because I can't get back there with a breaker bar.
What penetrating oil did you use? Kroil and PB Blaster are the preferred ones. The "yellow can" Liquid Wrench is so-so; not nearly as aggressive as PB.

It may also call for heat.

Alas, I think your only alternative is to remove the whole bracket as you say, but IIRC, those bolts face the passenger side on the side of the rail, between the rail and the engine, and there's VERY little room in there.
I used WD 40 as autozone once again recommended. I'll pick up pb blaster when i can and see what happens.

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Old 03-22-2010, 02:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

A few of my friends say that maybe the car is cursed. My tag number does end in 666 so maybe a couple new plates are all I need

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Old 03-22-2010, 02:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgg4591 View Post
I used WD 40
WD40 isn't even a penetrating oil. That's why it didn't work.
Quote:
as autozone once again recommended.
As the song goes, "There's your trouble...."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgg4591 View Post
A few of my friends say that maybe the car is cursed. My tag number does end in 666 so maybe a couple new plates are all I need
I _think_ Wisconsin actually skips 666 in its plate numbering sequence. Just turn the plate upside down, and if you get pulled over, tell the cop you assumed the number was 999, and didn't understand why the letters were upside down....

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Old 03-22-2010, 03:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
WD40 isn't even a penetrating oil. That's why it didn't work.
As the song goes, "There's your trouble...."
I _think_ Wisconsin actually skips 666 in its plate numbering sequence. Just turn the plate upside down, and if you get pulled over, tell the cop you assumed the number was 999, and didn't understand why the letters were upside down....
LOL. I guess thats why in some apartment buildings and hotels there is no 13th floor, just 11,12,14,15,16. Im gonna go pick up some REAL penetrating oil and see what happens.

...
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2007 Toyota Camry 2.4, 29,600 miles
1999 Saturn SL2 1.9, 93,700 miles

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Old 03-22-2010, 05:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Well both the 15mm nuts are definatly rounded. I was able to loosen the two top bracket bolts that the mount is sitting on. If I tape a piece of pipe to the wrench I should be able to reach the bottom two. Now the hard part is going to be removing a replacement off of a junkyard car being it will probably be rusted on.

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Old 03-22-2010, 09:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

When removing the bracket how many bolts do i have to remove? I can see the four 10mm bolts from the top, but it seems like it is secured from the other side as well.

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Old 03-22-2010, 10:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

There are 4 bolts on the engine side and 3 bolts on the wheelhouse side. Here's a scan from the FSM.
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Old 03-22-2010, 10:36 PM   #16
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

But before you punt, describe just what's happening with the body-side stud and nut that's not budging. Is the head of the nut rounding? Are the threads on the stud stripped? Is the socket "jumping" on the nut? Is it a 15mm SIX-point good quality socket that's NOT cracked?

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Old 03-22-2010, 10:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
But before you punt, describe just what's happening with the body-side stud and nut that's not budging. Is the head of the nut rounding? Are the threads on the stud stripped? Is the socket "jumping" on the nut? Is it a 15mm SIX-point good quality socket that's NOT cracked?
The nut is rounded.

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Old 03-23-2010, 12:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Next thing to try is an extractor socket (see above). Plus real penetrant, and possibly heat.

Also try the "OldNuc maneuver" - smack the socket while it's sitting on the nut; evidently the shock breaks loose some of the metallurgical mojo that has seized the nut to the stud.

Last edited by madpogue; 03-23-2010 at 01:08 AM..

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Old 03-23-2010, 01:13 AM   #19
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
Next thing to try is an extractor socket (see above). Plus real penetrant, and possibly heat.

Also try the "OldNuc maneuver" - smack the socket while it's sitting on the nut; evidently the shock breaks loose some of the metallurgical mojo that has seized the nut to the stud.
How can i remove the back nut on the firewall side? I cant get back there with the breaker bar.

...
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2007 Toyota Camry 2.4, 29,600 miles
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:01 AM   #20
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Default Re: I don't know what could possibly go wrong next

Do you have an extension on the socket, to get the breaker bar to clear the top of the mount? Been a while since I worked on mine, but I don't think the hood will interfere.

Again - you DO have the engine supported underneath, right? Otherwise, the weight of the engine on the mount is working against you.

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