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Old 03-16-2010, 12:22 AM   #1
vhayduk
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2002 VUE 3.0L
Default 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

This Vue is really starting to get on my nerves Mind you, when it runs, it drives well and there's not much more that can go wrong

Todays problem: misfire codes

P0300 - Random Misfire
P0301 - Cyl 1 Misfire
P0303 - Cyl 3 Misfire
P0305 - Cyl 5 Misfire

I can't find an engine layout/diagram with cyl numbering for the L81. Anyone have it handy? I'm guessing that 1/3/5 is one bank. Most recent maint. was timing belt and plugs.

It runs OK when cold, but letting it idle warm is when the misfire(s) show up. Drives fine (no flashing engine light). I'm thinking it might be a vac leak as the short term fuel trims are jumping around a lot and bank 1 goes to +3.9 while bank 2 is at -3.9.

Vince

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Old 03-16-2010, 12:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Cylinder bank 2, 4, 6 are in front, rears are 1, 3, 5 by the firewall. Other than a possible vacuum leak on that side of the intake runner, this might be a faulty ignition coil pack. Unfortunately they're not interchangeable for testing. Checked the connector for corrosion?

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Old 03-16-2010, 01:39 AM   #3
vhayduk
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Thanks for the super quick reply! Do you happen to know which is bank 1 and which is bank 2 as far the the computer is concerned?

Do you know what prevents the coil packs from being interchanged? Mounting holes?

I thought I plugged them in well after doing the plug change; I'll unplug them and clean/lubricate with contact cleaner as a first start.

Thanks!

Vince

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Old 03-16-2010, 04:16 AM   #4
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhayduk View Post
Do you happen to know which is bank 1 and which is bank 2 as far the the computer is concerned?

Do you know what prevents the coil packs from being interchanged? Mounting holes?
I'd say Bank 1 is Cyl. 1-3-5
Since Bank 1 is offset from Bank 2 the 2 coil paks are very different physically - primarily the distance the plugs are from the connector.

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Old 03-16-2010, 06:06 PM   #5
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2002 VUE 3.0L
Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhayduk View Post
This Vue is really starting to get on my nerves Mind you, when it runs, it drives well and there's not much more that can go wrong

Todays problem: misfire codes

P0300 - Random Misfire
P0301 - Cyl 1 Misfire
P0303 - Cyl 3 Misfire
P0305 - Cyl 5 Misfire

I can't find an engine layout/diagram with cyl numbering for the L81. Anyone have it handy? I'm guessing that 1/3/5 is one bank. Most recent maint. was timing belt and plugs.

It runs OK when cold, but letting it idle warm is when the misfire(s) show up. Drives fine (no flashing engine light). I'm thinking it might be a vac leak as the short term fuel trims are jumping around a lot and bank 1 goes to +3.9 while bank 2 is at -3.9.

Vince
what tool are you using to monitor the fuel trims? Sounds interesting...

I don't remember if the coil packs are symmetric and can be swapped. They are definitely different parts at least, since they label the respective bank's cylinder numbers.

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Old 03-18-2010, 11:23 AM   #6
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Did you replace your intake manifold gaskets (bottom and top of the plate between the engine block and intake plenum)?

I had the exact same issues that you do now and when I replaced those gaskets, all the misfire codes went away, and I started getting a lean condition code on both banks instead. That then turned out to be the recall issue that requires a spring kit in the top end of the intake manifold. The vent inside the intake plenum is a long black plastic piece and the screws loosen up and create a pretty large air vacuum. To fix it you need to remove all the screws, apply loctite on them, and then install the spring kit on the right side. I went one step further and applied RTV sealant to the gasket. After that, all my codes disappered.

I can't find the TSB for this recall issue but maybe someone who knows where its located can provide you with a link.

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Old 03-18-2010, 11:41 AM   #7
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2002 VUE 3.0L
Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzracer14 View Post
I can't find the TSB for this recall issue but maybe someone who knows where its located can provide you with a link.
YZR, I found this in the archives, is this the one you mean ??
SNIP
(MIL) Service Engine Soon Telltale Illuminated With DTCs P0171 and/or P0174 (Retorque Intake Manifold Vacuum Chamber Bolts, Install Vacuum Chamber Springs) #02-06-01-016A - (Mar 24, 2003)
(MIL) SERVICE ENGINE SOON Telltale Illuminated With DTCs P0171 and/or P0174 (Retorque Intake Manifold Vacuum Chamber Bolts, Install Vacuum Chamber Springs)
2002-2003 Saturn VUE -- Built Up To and Including VIN Breakpoint 3S854417 with 3.0L, V6 Engine (VIN R -- RPO L81)
This bulletin is being revised due to a change in Parts Requirements. Please discard bulletin 02-T-28 (Corporate Bulletin Number 02-06-01-016 , Section 06 -- Engine).
Condition
Some customers may comment on the (MIL) SERVICE ENGINE SOON telltale being illuminated. (DTC(s) P0171 - Fuel Trim System Lean Bank 1 and/or DTC P0174 - Fuel Trim System Lean Bank 2 may be set and stored in the ECM memory.)
Cause
This condition may be caused by insufficient torque on the intake manifold vacuum chamber bolts. Under deceleration, enough vacuum can be created inside the intake manifold to lift the vacuum chamber off it's seal creating an intermittent vacuum leak.

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Old 03-18-2010, 01:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Somewhere in the rest of that text it gives you the actual part number for the springs. I think they cost me around $38.00 and I just searched for it on saturnparts.com and found them pretty quickly. Expensive for nothing more than two springs, but there really isn't another choice as rockauto, autozone nor any similar stores carry them.

For a few weeks I thought my vacuum hoses on the flapper control solenoid was the culprit because I continued to hear an air vacuum around that area. Turned out to be the vaccum chamber (which I previously referred to as the vent) that loosened up. When i got it apart and removed the vacuum chamber and saw how it mates up with the intake plenum, it all made sense.

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Old 03-18-2010, 04:26 PM   #9
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2002 VUE 3.0L
Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzracer14 View Post
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Somewhere in the rest of that text it gives you the actual part number for the springs.
Remember this the part#
Install vacuum chamber springs, P/N 93175463, on vacuum chamber

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Old 03-21-2010, 08:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Thanks for all the replies.

nil5: I'm using a ELM327 (google it; a very popular USB-> OBDII interface) and this software: http://sourceforge.net/projects/scantool/

I'm trying to use software from here http://www.palmerperformance.com/pro...lstd/index.php but it doesn't work yet. I'm working with the developers to see where the problem it. I'm also trying to convince them to rework the GM enhancements to work with the 02/03 V6 Vues. If they were to do that, I believe it would be the only aftermarket scantool offering that for the 02/03.

yzracer: Interesting... since I just did the timing belt, I was starting to think that I had one of the cams on the rear bank a tooth off. I'm still going to look into that possibility. You said you had the same codes as me; did you have exactly the same ones? As in misfire on 1/3/5? I have a hard time believing that vac leak could only affect one bank and not the other? Since the intake runners are front/back/front/back/front/back what are the chances of having a leak on the back ones only.

For the record, no I didn't replace the gasket. I forgot to order it when I ordered the other parts and it looked fine. For the record: which gasket are you referring to? I pulled the top half of the intake to change the spark plugs but I didn't touch the "lower" intake. Are you referring to the gasket between the "top" and "bottom" halves of the intake or the gasket between the "bottom" intake and the cyl head?

Thanks!

Vince

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Old 03-21-2010, 10:15 PM   #11
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhayduk View Post
Thanks for all the replies.

nil5: I'm using a ELM327 (google it; a very popular USB-> OBDII interface) and this software: http://sourceforge.net/projects/scantool/

I'm trying to use software from here http://www.palmerperformance.com/pro...lstd/index.php but it doesn't work yet. I'm working with the developers to see where the problem it. I'm also trying to convince them to rework the GM enhancements to work with the 02/03 V6 Vues. If they were to do that, I believe it would be the only aftermarket scantool offering that for the 02/03.

yzracer: Interesting... since I just did the timing belt, I was starting to think that I had one of the cams on the rear bank a tooth off. I'm still going to look into that possibility. You said you had the same codes as me; did you have exactly the same ones? As in misfire on 1/3/5? I have a hard time believing that vac leak could only affect one bank and not the other? Since the intake runners are front/back/front/back/front/back what are the chances of having a leak on the back ones only.

For the record, no I didn't replace the gasket. I forgot to order it when I ordered the other parts and it looked fine. For the record: which gasket are you referring to? I pulled the top half of the intake to change the spark plugs but I didn't touch the "lower" intake. Are you referring to the gasket between the "top" and "bottom" halves of the intake or the gasket between the "bottom" intake and the cyl head?

Thanks!

Vince
sad face

For everybody else who owns an 02/03 VUE or other vehicle with the L81 V6 (or similar family), if you go to the trouble to change the plugs change the thermostat while you're at it!! If you're going to change your thermostat, change your plugs!!

Now that I've got that over with

The only intake manifold gasket is attached to the intake manifold spacer. This is the aluminum piece that sits between the two heads and the intake manifold proper. From the factory it has a molded rubbery gasket that, while being a single piece, provides mating surfaces on both the top and bottom sides. The aftermarket replacement I used, by Felpro, is different because it has to be, but it solves the same problem and it works well enough.

Somebody got suckered into buying an entirely new intake spacer with the molded piece as an unscrupulous mechanic told them that the gasket alone could not be replaced.

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Old 03-22-2010, 08:37 AM   #12
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2002 VUE 3.0L
Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by nil5 View Post
The aftermarket replacement I used, by Felpro, is different because it has to be, but it solves the same problem and it works well enough.

Somebody got suckered into buying an entirely new intake spacer with the molded piece as an unscrupulous mechanic told them that the gasket alone could not be replaced.
I have them on order from Napa but they are on back order and don't know how long they will be on back order, must be a popular item. Stealership wants over $100 Can.

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Old 03-22-2010, 02:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

rockauto.com has the gaskets in stock, at least they did a few weeks ago. Might want to check there.

vhayduk- Yes, I had the exact same codes that you did. if i learned anything over the past few months with my 02' vue problems, it's that the engine can throw some funny combinations of codes.

At first i had exactly the same codes that you do now. I said the same thing you did (how can a leak only cause a misfire in those three?) I have no idea why, I just know that it did. When i replaced the gaskets on the manifold spacer (right next to the thermostat), those codes went away and I got the lean condition code, installing the intake chamber springs fixed that.

Do a google search on those codes. I found a bunch of different vehicles with the same problem of misfire detections in one bank but not the other and it turned out to be gaskets. In short, I don't know why it happens, but it does.

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Old 03-22-2010, 07:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzracer14 View Post
rockauto.com has the gaskets in stock, at least they did a few weeks ago. Might want to check there.

vhayduk- Yes, I had the exact same codes that you did. if i learned anything over the past few months with my 02' vue problems, it's that the engine can throw some funny combinations of codes.

At first i had exactly the same codes that you do now. I said the same thing you did (how can a leak only cause a misfire in those three?) I have no idea why, I just know that it did. When i replaced the gaskets on the manifold spacer (right next to the thermostat), those codes went away and I got the lean condition code, installing the intake chamber springs fixed that.

Do a google search on those codes. I found a bunch of different vehicles with the same problem of misfire detections in one bank but not the other and it turned out to be gaskets. In short, I don't know why it happens, but it does.
As far as I know, my engine didn't have the work done for the springs you mentioned. Where can I read more about that/could you describe it in a little more detail? What problem do they solve?

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Old 03-22-2010, 11:35 PM   #15
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Thanks for the input guys; I'll order the gasket and give it a try. I'll see if my local NAPA can get it; they are usually really good. If not, then rockauto it will be. Hopefully I don't start getting the lean codes; I really just need this thing to run for more than a tank of gas without needing something else

Vince

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Old 03-24-2010, 07:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

HERE is the TSB in .PDF form that has pictures and is pretty much self-explanatory.

A couple things that I did as well that I don't think were mentioned in the TSB. I removed the screws inside the intake chamber that hold the flappers down and applied loctite on those. When I put everything back together, I applied RTV silicone to all the sealing areas. I couldn't find new gaskets for the top cover, vacuum chamber, or the 5 sleeves. I didn't want to have to take this thing apart again later so I made sure everything was sealed.

The TSB doesn't tell you this, but the solenoid that controls the flappers, has a hose that connects it to the underside of the vacuum chamber. The hose is too short to remove after taking the vacuum chamber out so i suggest removing it before. it might be easier to just to disconnect it from the solenoid since it's hard to reach the underside of the intake chamber without removing everything. While I had this apart, I went ahead and replaced that hose for cheap insurance.

Be careful when removing the vacuum chamber. Half my gasket stuck to the chamber and the other half stuck to the metal surface of the manifold. It's a hard gasket to find so you don't want to tear it. I nudged the gasket free with a plastic knife that I shaved all the serations off of.

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Old 04-15-2010, 04:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Holly cow, I got these exact codes today, heavy misfiring, and a flashing check engine light. Looks like I'm in on this too! I'm going to have a look at this flapper and get to ordering new spacer gaskets and plugs. I've just done the thermostat and oil cooler.

I assume I have to go visit the Saturn parts desk for the springs? (P/N 93175463)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhayduk View Post
This Vue is really starting to get on my nerves Mind you, when it runs, it drives well and there's not much more that can go wrong

Todays problem: misfire codes

P0300 - Random Misfire
P0301 - Cyl 1 Misfire
P0303 - Cyl 3 Misfire
P0305 - Cyl 5 Misfire

I can't find an engine layout/diagram with cyl numbering for the L81. Anyone have it handy? I'm guessing that 1/3/5 is one bank. Most recent maint. was timing belt and plugs.

It runs OK when cold, but letting it idle warm is when the misfire(s) show up. Drives fine (no flashing engine light). I'm thinking it might be a vac leak as the short term fuel trims are jumping around a lot and bank 1 goes to +3.9 while bank 2 is at -3.9.

Vince

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Old 04-17-2010, 06:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

So, it looks like I had a combination of problems causing the misfire. Main one was the fact that my throttle body wasn't on fully torqued. The lower bolt was never tightened. I torqued it to spec and drove it. Then I only had misfire on #5 after short term fuel trim reached zero. Pulled the coil pack and found the #5 plug chamber full of old oil-laden coolant from before my oil cooler change and flush. No idea how it got in there, and no sign of my current green coolant. It can't be the head gasket because that's below the plug. I doubt the head is cracked as it's never been overheated.

Scratching my head on this one.

Anyhow, proceeding to change the plugs and the intake manifold gaskets.

One more thing. I found most of the valve cover bolts to have no significant torque at all. Got them all torqued to spec now.

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Old 04-18-2010, 06:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: 02 V6 Misfire codes; need engine layout

Everything's running well now. However, the A/C compressor won't engage. Haven't run it since it first got cold so no way to tell if it has anything to do with my taking the intake off 10 times in the past 2 months. It may just be a low coolant fluid situation. I know they have cut-off switches for that. Time to read up on A/C service again.

Oh, one window regulator quit too. It never ends with this car.

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