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Old 03-03-2010, 12:27 PM   #1
Billaird99
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1997 SC2
Default Motor position / Motor mount problem

I just picked up another 1997 SC2 and after getting it home last night, I decided to start working on it to fix problems that I found while looking it over. First problem I have encountered today was with the top motor mount. After struggling to get the nuts off the old mount, the bolts came out out of the timing cover (all three bolts came out w/nuts) I figured I would address the bolts after I dropped the new mount into place but ran into a problem.

The old mount was literally broke in two, the large rubber piece snapped from the metal and it came out in 2 pieces. I tried to fit the new mount and it won't go back in properly. It's as if the motor is misaligned and the only way I can even start to get the new mount in is to grab at the back of the motor and pull/rock the motor towards the front and the mount then starts to fall into place but if I let go it pops back up, it never gets close to line up the three bolt holes in the timing cover. It's as if the motor is shifted back around 4 inches and it won't allow the mount to drop into place. I figured that was the cause of the old mounts failure as it twisted and sheared itself away from the metal of the mount

I dropped my jack w/wood off the pan and tried to just pull the motor forward but the motor goes right back into place. What would be my next step? I'm thinking that the transmission mount should be loosened up and maybe that will allow me to shift the motor but if that doesn't work then what should I do? There is no signs that this was ever in a front end crash so I'm stumped as to why the motor is so far out to not let me get the motor mount back in and then address other issues.


Thanks in advance for the replies. Bill

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Old 03-03-2010, 01:04 PM   #2
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1996 SW2
Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

Those should be studs, and you should put them into the timing cover first. Remove the nuts from the studs, put some Loctite on the threads that go into the timing cover, install to specified torque (18 ft-lb?). Not only is that the right sequence, it allows you to use all five studs as "locating pins". You'll probably want to jack the engine back up on the jack, and use the jack to move the powertrain around to line it up. With its weight laying on the dogbone/bracket on the cradle, it's gonna be hard to position it. And IIRC, the powertrain should _initially_ be up a little bit, so the mount sits flush on the timing cover first, and then lowered to where the mount sits on the top fender bracket.

If you're using a scissor jack or bottle jack, or something else not on casters, I suppose you could, very carefully, put the car in neutral and nudge the car backward with the powertrain on the jack, which would have the effect of moving the powertrain forward relative to the car.

It might also help to loosen the bracket-to-cradle nuts mentioned here: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73563 , to allow the powertrain to move into position.

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Old 03-03-2010, 01:43 PM   #3
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

Maybe I described it wrong. The old mount was broken in half (the rubber twisted and broke). I did not realize this until after I had jacked up the car and took the pressure off and then proceeded to remove the studs with the nuts still on them out of the timing cover.

After I pulled the old mount off and tried to just fit the new mount in it's spot, that's when I discovered that the new mount will not sit on the studs on the frame of the car and then drop into place over the holes in the timing cover.

It's as if the motor is too far to the rear and will not let me line up the holes in the mount after it sits on the studs on the frame. I have loosened up the lower mount and even went as far as taking the exhaust loose to see if that might be binding things up but still I Cannot get the new mount to drop into the spot. I will try to get a pictures and upload it as this has me stumped right now.

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Old 03-03-2010, 02:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

When I replaced my 11-year old original upper mount, I had to jack the engine higher than it was with the old (collapsed) mount. A lot.
Did you loosen the two nuts on the lower "dog bone" to allow some shifting? They secure the "dog bone" to the engine cradle.
Loosening the tranny mount won't help much, you are rotating the engine a few degrees anyway.
I suppose you could loosen the tranny "dog bone" to allow some movement too.

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Old 03-03-2010, 02:08 PM   #5
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1996 SW2
Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

No, I understand what you meant. But if you put the studs into the cover first, then jack the powertrain up again and wrestle it forward, you'll be able to drop the mount onto all five studs, without having to hold the powertrain in place while you insert the studs through the mount into the cover.

The exhaust won't restrict the movement, thanks to the flex-pipe. If there's anything restricting, it's the lower bracket and dog-bone on the cradle. It doesn't do any good to loosen the bolts for the dog-bone itself; you have to loosen those two nuts you reach from the bottom of the cradle. Dang, I keep forgetting our photo section is down; the pics there (would) illustrate.

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Old 03-03-2010, 03:07 PM   #6
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

All right, I was able to get it in. I have a feeling that it will rip again as it is already showing that it is slightly twisted. It's the frown type made by Anchor but I wanted to get another in quickly and didn't want to shop around so I'll take my chances right now. But the car shimmies less in gear, so it was an improvement.

I did find when poking around the exhaust that the flex pipe has 2 spots where it looks like it's leaking and that could relate to the error codes I'm getting (p0133 & p0420).

But the car only gets to the 1/4 mark on the temp gauge so next up is the ECTS and the T-stat and that may make more of a difference than the flex pipe.

I want to continue this thread with progress made on the error codes and also I have a problem with the Speedometer.

The Speedometer is most definitely off by around 10MPH. When stopped the needle goes lower than the first mark on the speedo and settles about 1/4" lower than I believe it should. Is this a mechanical gauge or electronic? How would I attempt to fix this?


Thanks for the replies. Bill

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Old 03-03-2010, 03:19 PM   #7
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1996 SW2
Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

Yeah, get a non-frowny mount soon. OldNuc can speak better to this, but I'd be concerned about side force possibly taking itself out on the timing cover.

The exhaust leak will most definitely throw a P0420.

The speedometer is electronically driven by the PCM, but of course, it's a mechanically moving pointer. Perhaps the needle was removed some time in the past and reinstalled in the wrong position.

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Old 03-03-2010, 03:26 PM   #8
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

I guess I could take the needle off and then put it back on at the first hashmark and see if that actually changes anything. At 65MPH (on the speedo) last night I was passing a lot of people to find out from my wife who was trying to follow me that I was around 75MPHish.

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Old 03-03-2010, 03:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

I think your mounts were in about the condition mine were:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-RrQdqaF8

I'd recommend replacing the two dogbone mounts and the tranny mount asap to try and get that engine straightened back out. Mine did the exact same thing where I put in a new top motor mount and had to wrestle the engine to get the mount to line up to the studs. I very quickly ordered new mounts to replace the others. I think having that top mount so destroyed that is just trashes the rest.

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Old 03-06-2010, 06:51 PM   #10
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

All right, I swapped out both the ECTS (plastic tip was cracked as it was OEM) with a brass tipped ECTS and the T-stat with a stant 195 degree and problems with temp gauge are now cleared. Also problems with high idle and surging are gone because of the 2 swaps. After driving 30 miles, the service engine soon light has not come back after I pulled the battery to replace the ECTS. I'll probably drive it some more tomorrow but hopefully the P0133 & p0420 are gone.

I took the car to the car wash and tried to get all the oil accumulation washed off, it was really bad and I doubt that anyone has ever done this to the motor, at least not for a very long time.

Next up is the speedo, looks like I'll take the dash off / out and attempt to pull the needle and place it back on at the correct position. If anyone has tried this, please let me know ahead of time if it won't work as it would be a wasted hour or so.

Then after that I would need to track down why the engine is twisting the upper motor mount the way it is. I've purchased a new transmission mount so that will probably go in next and then I'll take a look at both the dog bones and see how they look.

Making progress one little bit at a time.

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Old 03-06-2010, 10:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billaird99 View Post
If anyone has tried this, please let me know ahead of time if it won't work as it would be a wasted hour or so.
I have taken apart 1000's of speedometers over the years (yes...1000's - don't ask why) and there is the remote possibility that the needle has either slipped, or else someone has had the cluster apart for some reason and the needle got taken off and replaced in the wrong position. If you attempt to remove the needle, the easiest way is to rotate it BACKWARDS (provided it is not sitting against a stop peg) while pulling out gently. To replace it, simply push it into place in the proper location. Be careful not to bend it and get it rubbing against the speedometer face.

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Old 03-07-2010, 06:15 PM   #12
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

Coo, thanks for the tip Hildago.

I didn't get a chance to look at it today but I found a broken rear sway-bar link when I was looking under the rear of the car. I ended up searching a few threads and rockauto.com and found that my Advance Auto carries grease-able links from Moog (p/n K90520).

After replacing them, the car handles waaay better and this was probably the swaying feeling in the ass ends on corners. So another little piece accomplished. But alas, I did find another problem.

The rear drums are welded on (not really) but after smacking off all the scaling rust that was on both side, I am unable to remove the drums to take a peek. So I'm thinking that the PA winters and salt accumulations has rusted them on OR the drums have never, ever been off and the rear shoes have eaten into them and caused a lip to form. Not sure which is the case.

So now I have to figure out next weekend what I have to do to get the drums off, any suggestions?

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Old 03-07-2010, 06:41 PM   #13
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1996 SW2
Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

If it were just the lip, it would come loose, move a little and then jam on the lip. Sounds like yours are still rusted in place. Shoot copious volumes of PB Blaster around the hub hole of the drum, and into the holes where the lugs pass through. Give it some time to do its thing. Spin the drum and smack the side of it as it spins with the bigeffin-est hammer you can get your mitts on. Wear ear muffs or plugs, and the most shock-absorbing gloves you have. I forget whether I used an 8- or 12-pounder, but nobody in the neighborhood was sleeping in that morning....

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Old 03-07-2010, 06:51 PM   #14
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
If it were just the lip, it would come loose, move a little and then jam on the lip. Sounds like yours are still rusted in place. Shoot copious volumes of PB Blaster around the hub hole of the drum, and into the holes where the lugs pass through. Give it some time to do its thing. Spin the drum and smack the side of it as it spins with the bigeffin-est hammer you can get your mitts on. Wear ear muffs or plugs, and the most shock-absorbing gloves you have. I forget whether I used an 8- or 12-pounder, but nobody in the neighborhood was sleeping in that morning....
LOL, OK I'm down with that. I'll continue to spray it and hit it. Hopefully it will come loose.

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Old 03-17-2010, 11:43 AM   #15
Billaird99
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Default Re: Motor position / Motor mount problem

I finally got around to trying to get the rear drums off the car this past weekend. I ended up taking a Benz-o-matic to the drums, heated them up, a quick hit with the ball peen hammer and off they came.

I looked at the amount of rust these had endured so I decided to buy replacement drums at Advance Auto ($23/per) and used anti-seize where the drums come into contact with the hub. Hopefully these will never be as stuck as the originals again. I did take the time to inspect the brake hardware inside and everything looks good, the brake shoes themselves didn't even look wore down. So after adjusting the brakes shoes to lightly touch the drum when I spun them, the drums are back on.

I also changed out the transmission mount, this was easier than what I have read. I just jacked up the transmission after taking off the bottom nut of the mount and raised it enough to be able to pull the old mount (pretty badly compressed and shrunk) out and installed the new one in.

Also swapped out the Idler pulley with a new replacement from the parts store, that was a little more entailed with the upper motor mount having to be removed but nothing serious. While I was at it I also swapped out my A/C compressor with a j/y special, it works (old one was growling from a bad bearing) but now I have to get the seals and have it charged back up by a A/C repair place.

Everything is starting to come together, other than the recirculation motor started clicking when I turn the fan blower on, which after watching a richpin video, doesn't seem to hard to tackle so that will probably be this weekend. I'll need to check to make sure no debris is in there so the dash will have to come off.

I'll update further on this once I get into it this weekend.

Bill

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