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Old 12-20-2009, 10:33 AM   #1
davesaturn
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Default oil filter change without changing the oil?

I noticed that the oil filter is on top of the engine, which SHOULD make it easy to change the filter without changing the oil RIGHT?

I was thinking of extending the oil change to 5000 miles with an filter change at 2500.

now call me names and say rude things to me

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Old 12-20-2009, 11:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

unless you are doing some really tough stop and go driving i wouldnt even do the oil filter at 2500 miles if you are changing at 5000. at 5000 miles most are at about 40 to 50 percent oil life left

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Old 12-20-2009, 04:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Depending on your ION's OLM (Oil Life Monitor) and your driving style... the OLM will go off usually well past 5,000 miles. I wouldn't say you have as much as 10,000 miles before the OLM goes off. I'd speculate more toward onefunkar's 40% Life left... (8,000 miles?)

My OLM (2003 ION 3) tends to go off after 7,000 miles... As I prefer getting my vehicle in for preventive service maybe 3 times a year or so I do stick with 5-6,000 mile service intervals... (Which actually complies with my model's 6 months/6,000 mile recommended interval)

I've also had Oil Analysis done via Blackstone Labs (See my Photo Gallery for my ION's 2004 report and reports for an 2005 Equinox)and have found my filter/oil (which I provide to Saturn) have all held up well with this interval.

Yes, the oil filter is easily changed without the need to drain any oil... if your ION is cold... the filter is not covered in dripping hot oil, and will be easily swapped out.

If you'd like to inspect your Filter, it is easily done at anytime (with the engine off). Should you find it abnormally dirty or bloated/damaged, it is cheap to just swap it out and run a fresh filter till the next change.

On some of the long term Oil change intervals I've read up on... an Oil Filter Change can provide a "boost" to Oil and extend the Oil's service life.

My advice is if you check your Oil Level and change based on the OLM you should be fine. If you want some extra confidence you could send in test samples to verify performance. Changing the filter might be a good idea if you are going to reset the OLM and go beyond it's recommended change interval.

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Old 12-20-2009, 04:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

our filters are as overkill as oils are. conventional intervals have proven so wasteful, companies like BMW even use an extended change interval. I listen to my OLM, many do, and it has proven reliable since the 90s when the first saturn was fitted with it.

the best thing you can do is keeping your engine buttoned up, don't run it with anything removed, don't remove the intake, oil fill cap, or oil filter cap any more frequently than necessary. this will keep crap out of your engine, and keep your oil clean. ring blow-by is not a big issue with our cars, so our oil does not get overly dirty over the miles.

...
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Old 12-20-2009, 06:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaturn View Post
I noticed that the oil filter is on top of the engine, which SHOULD make it easy to change the filter without changing the oil RIGHT?

I was thinking of extending the oil change to 5000 miles with an filter change at 2500.

now call me names and say rude things to me

thanks
Go for is Dave, can't hurt a thing

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Old 12-21-2009, 07:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

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Originally Posted by RoadIon View Post
Go for is Dave, can't hurt a thing

thx1
thx all

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Old 12-21-2009, 01:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Just remember to check your oil level once and a while (Gas fill ups are a good opportunity). The OLM doesn't check for level and doesn't know if any contaminates are getting in. (Water,Anti-Freeze,Fuel, etc.)

If you wait for an Oil Pressure warning light before checking your oil... the damage may have already been done.

A friendly reminder to all if your hood is opened for service by anyone but yourself it doesn't hurt to "double check" afterward that everything is done properly.

I actually noticed a loose Oil Filter Cap (could see the O-Ring and slight wetness around the Filter housing) by Saturn maybe a week or two after they had serviced it (while checking my Oil). I was in town and had them tighten it up for me... had I never looked I might have had a serious engine problem on my hands.

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Old 12-21-2009, 06:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaturn View Post

now call me names and say rude things to me
This shows me you know it is a dumb thing to do so... why are you going to do it and further more why are you going to post about it. 5,000 miles is a minimum on these motors to even think about doing an oil and filter change.

...
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Old 12-21-2009, 07:50 PM   #9
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Dizzy Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by calirider View Post
This shows me you know it is a dumb thing to do so... why are you going to do it and further more why are you going to post about it. 5,000 miles is a minimum on these motors to even think about doing an oil and filter change.
thank you sir
may I have another...



Ancient wisdom from the Czech republic:

There are no dumb questions, only dumb actions

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Old 12-21-2009, 09:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

IMO, it's only dumb if you do it in a sand storm. it is however unnecessary seeing as though both the oil and filter routinely go 9000 miles without issue since these engines are o clean and sealed well.

...
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2006 ion2 View Post
IMO, it's only dumb if you do it in a sand storm. it is however unnecessary seeing as though both the oil and filter routinely go 9000 miles without issue since these engines are o clean and sealed well.
I'd be curious to know what your oil filters look like after 9000 miles... Are those Saturn/ACDelco Filters or after-market?

I've always found Saturn/ACDelco Filters are cheaper in my market then after-market so I've always stuck with them... but I can recall several posts on SaturnFans that had discussed how some after-market filters had seemed a bit iffy after just 1/3 or 2/3's of your change interval.

If your oil was good till 9,000 miles with out an Oil Filter change... I'm curious what kind of results you'd get with a filter change at say 5-6,000 miles.

With that said I might have to test that idea out and send a sample to Blackstone Labs and see how that compares to my other results. IMO, as long as the Oil's additive package is good, the insoluble level low (which is the filter's job), and wear metals are within the vehicle's average... running an extended change interval is nothing to worry about.

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Old 12-22-2009, 11:40 AM   #12
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

I can only speak from training and experience (we do quite extensive oil analysis in aviation) without actually sending my oil (yet) to blackstone. my filters are OEM or equivalent (fram). they look 100% in tact, no excessive particle buildup to suggest partial or even a possibility of blockage. as far as anything bigger than soluble, there is no evidence of anything floating around or settling at the bottom of the container. I just changed my oil, so in 9000 miles or 1 year I'll let you know how this OEM filter and mobil 1 look.

keep in mind, I run a flock type air filter (some argue to be dirtier than a paper one), but I keep my engine buttoned up, I check my oil, but otherwise everything stays closed.

...
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trifecta dealer for the U.P. and WI. There is no two door ion. Proudly driving one of the last saturns produced before gm killed the brand.

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Old 12-22-2009, 12:15 PM   #13
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

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Originally Posted by davesaturn View Post
now call me names and say rude things to me

thanks
Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

I fart in your general direction, I unclog my nose at you!

LOL...oh, and you smell and your mother dresses you funny...so there.

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Old 12-22-2009, 05:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoparNut View Post
Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

I fart in your general direction, I unclog my nose at you!

LOL...oh, and you smell and your mother dresses you funny...so there.
Most of those things are probably wrong!

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Old 12-23-2009, 01:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Filters actually work better and better the longer they are in; that is, they collect finer and finer stuff. They need changing only when there is a risk of the pressure drop across the media causing the media to break and let crap into the oil, or when there is excessive pressure drop thru them (reducing oil flow to the bearings). On industrial machinery they have gauges on the inlet/outlet to determine when they are "full". Cars don't have them, so the change interval is arbitrary, no matter what interval you pick.

So actually, you are doing a disservice to your engine by changing the filter more often than the oil. You would be better off changing the oil every 2500 and the filter every 5000 or more. Personally I'd go with the OLM, computers don't lie!

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Old 12-23-2009, 01:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeCitySC2 View Post
Personally I'd go with the OLM, computers don't lie!
Computers simply run programs. They don't lie, they don't tell the truth.

the OLM, being a computer, bases it's recommendation from whatever sensors are available to the program. If the sensors are faulty, so is the recommendation.

the OLM could simply measure time and mileage, and maybe even the amount of stops and starts, then passing minimal data thru a simple math statement like: E=mc2. -- This would cycle the oil thru a time loop. (now that's recycling)

Or, there could be a laser passing thru the oil with a sensor reading the amount of light that gets thru the oil. That would be groovy. In that case, if the laser or light reader is faulty, chances are the OLM would tell you to change the oil more often than needed.

In any case, redundant sensors would be needed.

Or you could plug your car into a Nintendo Wii for the best results. Then you could drive your car from the comfort of your home with a simple joy stick and maybe a Wii Fit system. Or a Car Hero game??? Wiiiiiii!!!!

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Old 12-23-2009, 02:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeCitySC2 View Post
Filters actually work better and better the longer they are in; that is, they collect finer and finer stuff.
(clip)
So actually, you are doing a disservice to your engine by changing the filter more often than the oil. You would be better off changing the oil every 2500 and the filter every 5000 or more. Personally I'd go with the OLM, computers don't lie!

I'm with davesaturn... The OLM is basically running a probability program based on various data provided to it. (The owner's manual has a good written example) It doesn't have any sensors directly analyzing oil quality.

So it can't tell what the insoluble level is. (If the filter is doing it's job and keeping the level low)

I understand the logic that a "seasoned" filter may provide some benefits but for the discussed 5,000 mile interval (or lets say the first OLM interval) a filter change really shouldn't be needed.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html
and
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html
which has this nice little summary:

"Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals is a huge waste of resources."

One of it's bullet points also talks about how "Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages." which probably supports both a "seasoned" filter AND oil argument...

Upon rereading that link... I might try the filter change at 5,000 idea (or after an OLM) and see about testing a "double" change interval. So maybe 12,000 or more on one oil change (two filters).

Still prefer getting the vehicle in for service 3 or so times a year so I guess I'll need to stagger other PM services/inspections when it's not getting it's oil changed.

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Old 12-25-2009, 10:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

The OLM on my 2003 is not the smart OLM that they have on the new cars guys.

Mine goes off exactly at 5k miles every time, no matter what the driving style.

I change it by 4k with regular quaker state 5w30.

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Old 12-25-2009, 10:30 AM   #19
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

go by the OLM or once a year. Anything else is unnecessary and a waste of money/time.

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Old 12-25-2009, 05:24 PM   #20
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Default Re: oil filter change without changing the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JH6 View Post
The OLM on my 2003 is not the smart OLM that they have on the new cars guys.

Mine goes off exactly at 5k miles every time, no matter what the driving style.

I change it by 4k with regular quaker state 5w30.
I find that hard to believe unless the ION-1 is actually "programed" to do that.

As I mentioned my 2003 ION-3's OLM does go beyond the 6,000 miles (probably more like 7,000 +) that the manual suggest for a change interval.

I wouldn't call the OLM in my ION-3 "smart" as it doesn't actually do any testing/calibrating based on REAL conditions. However, it does modify the suggested Oil Life based on RPMs, Ignition Start/Stops, Temps, etc. So I wouldn't call it "dumb" like a simple "change oil now" light that just goes off every 3/4/5/6/7,000 miles might be.

Just out of curiosity I'd check with your Saturn/GM dealership and see if maybe the Oil Life Monitor has various user "modes"... where an owner might designate a specific change interval (or sooner if conditions determine it) for the OLM to go off.

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