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Old 12-18-2009, 11:58 AM   #41
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by rentfrow1 View Post
Ok, I am trying to order parts through the machine shop. I am getting Clevite bearings (main and rod). For piston rings they have hastings and can get sealed power. I see on federal mogul's website that they stop giving the piston ring part number at 1998. Is there a difference for 1999 and later? I found :

E-933K 1.2mm top ring (95-98)
E-932K 1.5mm top ring (91-94)

RockAuto says the oil control ring for 99 is 2.5mm, but the sealed power rings are all 3.0mm. Is there another sealed power part number, or should I get another brand? If anyone can provied part numbers that would be very helpful. I will have the shop measure the ring grooves.
As you are recycling the pistons and just freshing the bore then use Hastings rings. They have a bit higher wall pressure and you need that so they will seat properly. If you do this correctly the rings will be seated before the engine reaches operating temperature the first time. Regardless of what you may read in some book...

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Old 12-18-2009, 01:12 PM   #42
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I got the hastings rings. 195psi in all cylinders

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Old 12-19-2009, 06:44 PM   #43
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Hastings it is then. That is what the shop recommended to begin with. It looks like the part number is:

2C4984

After further digging, it looks like sealed power doesn't make rings for 99 and later with 2.5mm oil control ring. I was looking at perfect circle because wolfman recommended them, but they are significantly more expensive. The guy working on my head measured the rings for me. They are 1.2, 1.5, 2.5mm.

I was just at the shop today to pick up the block. The head was all cleaned and ready to be reassembled. The lifters are weird. They are a plunger type on the opposite end of the cam follower, not directly on top of the valves. I also dropped off the flywheel to have it resurfaced.

I cleaned off the block with a hot water pressure washer and Castrol Super Clean. It did a really good job. I even got off most of the old RTV. I am going to wash it off once more in the bath tub later to make sure there is no residue left.

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Old 12-19-2009, 06:51 PM   #44
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Wash block in bathtub = single

Use a round fiber bristle brush and an electric drill to clean out all bolt holes. Any RTV in the bottom and you will strip out the threads.

These are cheap and they ship fast. Buy a bunch you never know when one will come in handy. https://www.solobrushes.com/WebCatg2...2ID=6&Cat1ID=4


The Hasting rings are OEM in most cases. Perfect circle are very good rings, but as you discovered, expensive.

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Old 12-19-2009, 08:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

My girlfriend suggested it. If that isn't romantic, I don't know what is.

Thanks for all the help

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Old 12-22-2009, 10:27 AM   #46
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

My comments about being run hot and or low on oil was based ont he fact that the top of the head is as black as a coal miners hind end. I've only seen engines that color that were abused, otherwise they have a brownish hue that fades to black/darker.

EDIT: I suggest you keep that girlfriend!

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Old 12-23-2009, 01:34 PM   #47
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I think the lean condition can be explained by the oil consumption. If I remember correctly, the burnned oil is detected by the O2 sensors as unburned fuel, and the engine trys to compensate by leaning out the fuel mix.

I am not sure what the carbon/soot is from, but it is everywhere. I have cleaned the throttle body 3 times, the EGR has been replaced and cleaned, and the whole intake manifold is full of carbon. I just recently replaced the thermostat, and that made the engine heat up faster, so it must have been leaking. The ects and front O2 sensor were both replaced a while ago (~5yrs).

The only thing I found in disassembly of the engine was that the intake to head gasket was deteriorated around the ports for the EGR and coolant passages (yeah Dex Cool). I don't know what sort of problems that might cause.

Any ideas?

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Old 12-23-2009, 01:46 PM   #48
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Adding oil to gas lowers the octane rating and eventually results in a slightly retarded spark. This will result in lower power and increased heat into the coolant. Also a longer "burn" time. You do also end up with a bit leaner effective mixture. The oil does not burn real clean as the resulting combustion temperature is too low to support complete combustion, that leaves an oil/carbon mix. All of this is an old story that technological advances relating to high octane/high compression/high combustion temperatures got rid of back by the mid 50s. The only thing that keeps todays engines clean is keeping the oil out of the combustion chamber.

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Old 12-23-2009, 05:44 PM   #49
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

OldNuc, thanks. So, the burning oil pretty much explains all the 'symptoms' of my engine, right?

My brother just picked up everything from the machine shop. Everything is good except they said that they broke one of the dowel pins off of flywheel when they resurfaced it. That shouldn't matter as long as I make sure that the pressure plate is aligned correctly, right?

On another note, is there anything really bad about using a Cloyes timing set over the Saturn OEM parts? I will be able to get that faster from Rock Auto, and I have 10% off my next order. Also, does anyone have a preference for RTV silicone or assembly lube? Engine building starts soon.

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Old 12-23-2009, 07:13 PM   #50
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by rentfrow1 View Post
OldNuc, thanks. So, the burning oil pretty much explains all the 'symptoms' of my engine, right?

My brother just picked up everything from the machine shop. Everything is good except they said that they broke one of the dowel pins off of flywheel when they resurfaced it. That shouldn't matter as long as I make sure that the pressure plate is aligned correctly, right?

Replace the gone dowel. You turn the flywheel over and punch them out from the back side with a drift punch. They are critical to the proper operation of the clutch cover. The bolts only hold the cover to the flywheel and the dowels prevent rotation of the cover. The dowel fits relatively tight into the mating hole in the cover. Looks like a trip to the scrap yard.

On another note, is there anything really bad about using a Cloyes timing set over the Saturn OEM parts? I will be able to get that faster from Rock Auto, and I have 10% off my next order. Also, does anyone have a preference for RTV silicone or assembly lube? Engine building starts soon.
The Cloyes set is the preferred replacement. The OEM has become way too expensive and is probably a Cloyes set anyways.

Use Locktite 518 on the timing cover and Ultra Black RTV anywhere else. Clean all surfaces with acetone right before assembly. Open working time for RTV is 3 minutes at 72F and longer at lower temperatures, plan ahead. Permatex Ultra Slick for assembly lube.

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Old 12-23-2009, 07:58 PM   #51
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I looks like I can get the OEM parts from SaturnParts.net for less, but I have to buy each part separately. $134 vs. $149.

2x Cam gear
1x crank gear
1x left guide
1x right guide
1x tensioner

I have to get the control arm to cradle bolts from there anyway. The only problem is that their shipping was slower than rockauto. Will do for the RTV. I have a 4oz bottle of the Ultra Slick. Will that be enough? I figure I will use it on all the bearings, cams, and maybe rings. Then I will just pour 5W30 all over the cams and timing set. Sound good? Does it do any good to use the fancy 'break-in' oil I have seen?

edit: Just kidding. I forgot the chain $52. Cloyes it is.

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:08 PM   #52
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Should I worry about the oil pump? The lobes have some nicks in them, but don't look worn down badly. How do you measure the wear when the center gear is free to move without the crankshaft through the center?

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:08 PM   #53
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

As far as engine lube, I prefer the CRC brand (called StayLube or something like that). It has the consistancy of toothpaste and contains graphite. It won't drip out and if no oil gets to the engine for awhile, the graphic still lubes it.

Make sure you run the engine for 20 minutes (up to temp) and then change the oil right after. Don't drive it any miles on the first oil. I drove 150 miles and when I drained the oil if was just sludgy already (black as coal and very thick).

The Cloyes timing chain kit is worth the money. You can get one from Rock Auto. Thats what I installed.

Use the Loctite (or Permatex) 518 for the timing chain cover. Really nice stuff. A bit pricy compared to RTV, but worth it. Also I used it for the rear main seal cover.

Use UltraBlack RTV for the oil pan. It has more working time and real sets up nice. Forget the gray stuff. I used the OEM gray stuff and did not like it. Later when I rebuilt the engine, I used the UltraBlack and it stuck like glue and still gave me some working time.

Make sure you prime the oil system properly.
For the oil pump, I made a mixture of vasolene, oil and engine lube to pack the oil pump. It was thinner than vasolene, but still has some thinkness to it.
Make sure you pour oil down the square hole underneath the oil filter (remove filter) which goes back to oil pump. Pull the spark plugs, pull the fuse for fule pump, pour a little oil down the plug holes and then turn the engine over until the oil pressure light goes out (mine took almost a minute before it went out), wait 30 seconds, turn over engine until oil light out (mine was immediate) and repeat one more time. Then put plugs back in, fuel pump fuse and then start here up.

As far as engine lube, lube everything that moves or rotates. Lube the pistons and rings, the cylinder walls, bearing surfaces, etc.

For a reference read my thread about my rebuild job:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...44#post1524144

I document all the steps and have lots of photos of the rebuild steps, especially rebuilding the block.

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:19 PM   #54
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I just got my block & crank back today also.

Are you going to go with the Hastings rings ?

I noticed that they are half the price of the FM

It also looks like the hast rings use a chrome top ring. Perhaps Old Nuc will chime in & confirm this.

The mach shop that I used, is a well known race engine builder & really knows thier stuff: http://www.hovisracingengines.com/

They told me that the chrome rings will not seat well unless the bore is darn near perfectly round. They also said (as did ON) that they have a bit more tension than the FM rings - and this makes perfect sense & backs up what ON has always said.

They also told me that the FM rings were iron, would seat faster & have less tolerance for dirt ingestion, but were perfectly good.

So, that being said, perhaps ON can put his 2 cents in here, as I am hung up on which ring set to use.

I thought the hastings P # was 2C4891

I also noticed that the OEM rear crank seal was a national. Does anyone know what the fel pro set comes with ? The OEM seal never leaked a drop, so I would like to replace it with another National seal.

I will also mention that the rear seal area on the crank has a wear line, but I cant feel it (I will post some pics) I'm considering using a sleeve on it & anyones input on that would be welcome.

rentfrow: please keep us up to date on your rebuild & I will do the same.

I didnt mean to hijack your thread, I just have many of the same questions as you.

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:22 PM   #55
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I will do all of the above in terms of oil system priming minus the vasoline. I don't like the idea of pumping vasoline through my newly cleaned lifters, and all the bearings.

The permetex has graphite in it; it is dark grey/black. Will 4oz be enough for the critical parts, or should I buy more?

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:27 PM   #56
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I got the Hastings rings. PN 2C4984 (I think). As far as I could tell FM and Perfect Circle don't have rings for '99 and beyond when Saturn switched to the 2.5mm oil control ring. I have not seen the rings yet, but I think they are moly top rings. Dirt ingression should not be an issue for any passenger car as far as I know.

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:33 PM   #57
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by rentfrow1 View Post
I got the Hastings rings. PN 2C4984 (I think). As far as I could tell FM and Perfect Circle don't have rings for '99 and beyond when Saturn switched to the 2.5mm oil control ring. I have not seen the rings yet, but I think they are moly top rings. Dirt ingression should not be an issue for any passenger car as far as I know.
I forgot that you have a 99 & the different rings (I have a 96 SOHC) that expains the part # difference & why FM does not make them.

I agree on the dirt ingression.

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Old 12-23-2009, 11:23 PM   #58
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Graphite will not do a lot for you actually. The Permatex Super slick will stay where you put it and if you do the plugs out, PCM-B fuse out prime before start everything fires up with nice coat of fresh engine oil. So your prelube is only to keep it lubed while its spinning on the starter. Be sure to squirt a bit of oil in each cylinder before you start priming and have the oil warm. Also be very sure to prelube the oil pump gears.

You can find this stuff at Advance or AutoZone and 1 bottle will be more than enough. I slop it on like holly water and it only takes about 1/2 of the bottle to do an engine. If it moves, rotates, or reciprocates then lube it.
http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...embly_Lube.htm

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Old 12-24-2009, 01:06 PM   #59
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

Bathtub cleaning went well. I still had to scrub quite a bit, because I only used about a half a gallon of purple cleaner in a bathtub full of water. The only problem is that the cleaner etches the aluminum, and leaves it a greyish color.

Then I threw in the intake manifold... Disaster. It was so full of black oily sludge that the water turned totally black, and when I drained it, black oily tar was left all over the tub. I spent the rest of the night cleaning it off. I figure I got about half of the crap out of the intake. Anybody have a better way to do it? The cost of hot dipping it is beginning to look really appealing.

The other thing I have to do is get the oil pressure relief valve out of the timing cover. I am thinking I can heat it in the oven to 250-300F, and it will come out easily. Is that a bad idea?

I will try to post more pics later today when I get my hands on my camera.

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Old 12-24-2009, 01:34 PM   #60
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Default Re: '99 SL2 Engine Rebuild

I have found that taking all of the aluminum parts in for a hot dip and wash is money well spent. The last one cost me $50.00 and I considered it a bargain. The steel bits are easy to clean up but aluminum poses unique problems.

Be sure to disassemble everything and send all of the aluminum bits. you can get the cylinder bores miked in the bargain and have good numbers. Those instruments that read to 1/10,000 are expensive.

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