2003 Vue No Start. Turns fast

[smark]

2003 Vue, 2.2 5 speed. Canada 400, 000 kms

Last night I park car. Went out this morning and it wouldn't start. It appears to crank faster than usual but usually starts right up so might just be me.
I checked all ECM and IGN fuses and they are all ok. Took rocker cover off thinking it might be timing chain and it is in tact and good tension. Replaced spak plug while I was in there. Checked with coil pack and there is spark at each spark plug. There was fuel pressure at the schrader valve and removed fuel line from rail and lots of fuel when I cranked engine over.
Put everything back together ..... still no start. Cranked engine over with pedal to floor thinking perhaps it was flooded .... slight change in pitch but no attempt at firing.
This is the first time the engine has failed to start.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

[fdryer]

If you are absolutely positively sure of spark and fuel, there remains the injector fuse that allows power to the injectors; no power, no injector pulses.

When you replaced the spark plug did you notice any raw wet fuel or smell on the plug? With all the cranking, there should have been plenty of fuel on all the plugs. No fuel on any plug can be an indication of a lack of injector pulses.

[Tom92SCm]

CPS? Crankshaft Position Sensor?

[smark]

When I replaced the plugs I looked in with a light and there was fuel on piston.
Spark was weak except for #4 piston

[smark]

is there a way to test CPS. Will likely have to wait til tomorrow to get a replacement

Thanks for you reply

[smark]

Not sure if it relates or not.
Combination switch Turn signal/Lights started acting up this week.
New combination Switch is on order and will be in tomorrow.

Doubt it is related

[fdryer]

Remove all the spark plugs and verify that they're wet; this verifies that the injectors are pulsing but wet plugs can short out the high voltage spark trying to ignite a flooded engine. Dry the plugs and crank the engine over a little to expel any raw fuel still remaining in the cylinders. Hold the throttle wide open while doing this. Replace the plugs and try starting again, leave the throttle alone. This will give the engine a better chance of starting with less raw fuel flooding and shorting out the spark.

This isn't a crank position sensor issue; if spark is seen on all the plugs its the end result of the entire EFI system (with the exception of a blown injector fuse) working correctly. No ignition/spark can take place without the cps operating as it allows the ECM to operate; the fuel pump, ignition system, and pulse the injectors. No cps timing signals to the ecm = no fuel pump operation, no ignition for spark, and no injector pulses. Having spark and fuel to each cylinder confirms proper cps operation. I asked specifically if there's spark to each plug to confirm cps operation.

One way to test cps' is with a multimeter set to measure resistance; each cps will measure between 700-1200 ohms. An open (no resistance read) is a failed cps.

[smark]

Thanks for the reply.

I will try again tomorrow morning.

I will keep you posted.


SNOWING here tonight

Gotta love Canada lol Good Night Shawn

[far2grumpy]

Do you always purchase gas at same place?

Fast cranking sounds like one or more stuck or sticky valves ... can happen when less than best grade of fuel is used - consistently.

There are chemicals to dump in gas and / or oil to loosen upper engine parts.

Have also attached two service bulletin with other possibilities.

[ssicarman]

When you had the valve cover off did you crank the engine to see if the chain was turning the cams?

[vhayduk]

The "faster" cranking may not be your imagination. I've had similar experiences on several vehicles with fast/effortless cranking but no-start. It was a result of some combustion occurring, but not enough for the engine to catch (ignition problem or severely lean/rich mixture)

A few logical conclusions:

- I would investigate the weak spark; you may be getting enough energy to spark at atmospheric pressure but not under compression.
- Likely not mechanical as it happened when the car was parked; much more likely to be an electrical component failure or outside influence.
- Highly unlikely to be sticking valves; 1 cyl maybe but it would still start.
- Could be fuel related; did you just fill up? Is your tank close to empty? Bad/contaminated fuel may work in a hot engine but then fail to start once cold. Add some gas line anti-freeze / methyl hydrate just in case.
- Do you have (access to) a code scanner? If so, try reading the codes.

Vince

[smark]

Is it possible I am missing a fuse location?

under hood by battery. right lower side of console under dash.

Cleaned heavy ground connection at rear of head. Also ceaned ground connection behind drivers headlight.

I don't have access to a scan tool. What quality scan tool would work. One form a local jobber?
All else fails I will tow it to a friends garage over the weekend so he can look at it.

I am going to pick up a used ignition module/coil set from local wrecker to ensure spark.

Will update later today

[fdryer]

All vehicle fuse holders are manufactured as general purpose hardware and configured for their specific application; there will always be vacant spots that appears to be missing fuses. They're not missing anything because nothing is wired there; they're empty spots. Owner's manuals outline which fuses are used and their locations.

There are many different scan tools/readers to choose from. Basic models that only read generic OBD II codes (like P0300) or more expensive ones that are capable of reading wrench codes (specific manufacturer's codes like P1650). Read some threads around here to get an idea as the better ones are under $200 now.

[smark]

Well Spent lots of time on car today.

I replaced the ignition module from a wreck. Prior to putting it in I pull boots off and laid it on it side close to metal. All terminals have strong spark to ground.

While at the wrecker I pulled the CPS form the same car but seeing I have strong blue spark I guess I can rule out the CPS.

I cleaned off spark plugs. There was fuel pooled in 2 of the cylinders. With fuel pump fuse out I cranked it over with no plugs it. Then took BBQ lighter and used it to pop any unburnt fuel in each cylinder.
With fuel pump fuse out and every thing back together I attempted to start with no luck.
Put fuel pump fuse back in ...... can hear pump run and cycle off. tried to crank over again and still no fire.

Cleaned contact and ground on electrical module to the left of the throttle body (small heat sink on top with 2 large black connectors) there was a small ground wire on this as well but cleaned it all up.

Double checked fuses in under hood fuse box near battery and also rechecked fuses on right side of console passengers side.

Is there any other fuse locations or fuse link locations I am overlooking?
Any other thoughts ..... where is this BCM I keep reading on here of struggles with this module/computer. Could this be related or is it ruled out knowing I have strong spark.

Any help is appreciated. Also put couple gallons fresh gas in tank with gas line antifreeze. Warmer today as well.

[smark]

Still at it.

LOL It will be something stupid

Pulled plgs out again. Checked each plug on each coil wire. Spark at each one (although less spark than at coil terminal)

Looking down each cylinder and they are once again flooded.
Unplugged fuel pump fuse ...... cleaned plugs cranked over with no plugs and used the lighter once again to really dry it out.

All cylinders dry. Plugs back in no fuel pump fuse in crank it over and no fire. Although it is sounding slower to crank ....... washing down of cylinder I guess.

Hey I'm learning lol

So no fire. Put fuel pump fuse back in cranked it .... paused and cranked again no fire. Pulled plugs again and once again they are flooded.

What could be flooding it out

Any thoughts??

[fdryer]

• If this were a security issue with the security indicator flashing while starting, the OEM anti-theft system disables the fuel pump from running. The engine will start and run but for only 2-seconds then starved of fuel, shut down. The security indicator, a car with a large padlock over it should be flashing if this were the case.

With flooding in the cylinders, its not likely that the anti-theft system is disabling the fuel pump when you're finding flooded cylinders. 400,000 km/248,000 miles - all cylinders losing compression? A compression test is needed.

• The bcm has the anti-theft system program. Its either above the radio or above the glove box. The security indicator should turn on during the ignition lamp/indicator test when the ignition key is turned to the ON/RUN position. Look for it as you can cycle the ignition as many times as you like. It turns off with the rest of the indicators unless; a theft attempt was made to trigger the security, bcm/tcm/ecm was replaced and a relearn or resynch wasn't performed, the lamp is burned out/missing.

This is a very puzzling problem as its difficult to work backwards when there's fuel and spark to each cylinder. It may take some serious troubleshooting to figure this one; isolating a possibility of excess fuel injection or poor high voltage spark.

You can at any time have your car towed to Saturn or if not nearby, the nearest GM dealer.

Excessive fuel and possible flooding can be checked. One idea would be to remove the fuel pump fuse or relay to prevent pump operation, crank the engine with throttle wide open to rid the cylinders of any excess fuel, then with someone cranking the engine a second time you spray starting ether into the throttle body expecting this to help the engine start up. If the engine suddenly starts up or at least have sounds like its trying to start, this may confirm an excessive fuel injection cycle. Excessive fuel injection may be caused by a faulty coolant sensor. One way for the coolant sensor to fail and cause rich starting conditions (similar to the S-series sensor failures) would be to have the thermister within have a very high resistance or poor connection. Only a high resistance would be interpreted by the ecm as a very cold engine. A fully warmed up engine would have this sensor change to low resistance (around 300 ohms) to be used to lean out the fuel mixtures. A quick substitution with a resistor around 300 ohms would immediately lean out the fuel mixture as if the engine were hot and possibly enable a cold start up. This can help isolate a faulty coolant sensor.

Any ignition issue is already being addressed by substitution of the ignition module. Perhaps the ignition coil pack is next. There may be a faulty ignition pack since you did mention different spark intensity.

Timing issues are fixed by the crank notches and electronics in the ecm. Mechanical timing depends on the chain integrity by a visual inspection and seeing the valvetrain moving while cranking the engine.

[smark]

Thanks for the idea re ether while cranking a dry engine. Will try that tomorrow.

Where is the coolant temp sensor located? Haven't been able to locate it on head.


Thanks.

[fdryer]

Does this help?

[far2grumpy]

Originally Posted by smark

Still at it.

LOL It will be something stupid

Pulled plgs out again. Checked each plug on each coil wire. Spark at each one (although less spark than at coil terminal)

Looking down each cylinder and they are once again flooded.
Unplugged fuel pump fuse ...... cleaned plugs cranked over with no plugs and used the lighter once again to really dry it out.

All cylinders dry. Plugs back in no fuel pump fuse in crank it over and no fire. Although it is sounding slower to crank ....... washing down of cylinder I guess.

Hey I'm learning lol

So no fire. Put fuel pump fuse back in cranked it .... paused and cranked again no fire. Pulled plugs again and once again they are flooded.

What could be flooding it out

Any thoughts??

You've got most of the essentials - spark and fuel - I still suspect you could be lacking compression.

Do you have access to a compression tester?

You could view the attached Saturn doc ... mentions fast crank, no start, fouled plugs - several of the symptoms you've encountered.

[smark]

I will try the ether while cranking and no fuel pump fuse tomorrow.

I have someone coming tomorrow with a GM scantool so fingers crossed.

I will keep you posted. Thanks for your input Shawn