Two Top Motor Mount Fixes in one day ...

[cfg83]

Hello -

We're another beneficiary of RichPin's videos :

Saturn Top Motor Mount R&R
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaugUfILmGE

My friend has a 2002 SL2 and I have a 1999 SW2. We got two new OEM motor mounts for $70 each from the Saturn Parts department. We did the fix for each of our engines. Here are the old motor mounts :



We read that the "frowny face" motor mount is not the good one. The OEM one looked like mine for both of our cars. Is that ok for the 2002 SL2? I think yes.

Question: Did 2002 S-Series use the "frowny face" motor mounts?

Here is the new one installed in my SW2 :



We also used these torque settings :



The top bolts were easy, but torquing the lower struts was hard because we had no leverage. I don't think I got over 45 lbs.

Question: Are we ok if we didn't get the whole 52 lbs torque?

The only other real problem we had was that we were in a driveway that has a gentle slope. When we did the SL2, the motor shifted just enough to make it almost impossible install the motor mount. I used a reversible clamp to "push" the engine just enough to get the new motor mount installed.

It took us about 3 1/2 hours, but we had to do two trips to get tools. We didn't have a 15 MM long socket, and we needed a longer non-torque wrench to get the top bolts off.

Result: Amazing. It's so much quieter and smooth. We can't believe the difference. Here is indirect proof :

Mirror shaking before and after new engine motor mount (2002 SL2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Errgi1V3c

It's hard to tell the first time you watch it because I didn't put the camera on a tripod. However, if you watch it a few times, you will see that the mirror is shaking in the before shot. In the after shot, no shaking. It was more extreme than it looks in the video.

THANKS RICHPIN AND SATURNFANS!


CarloSW2

[ShawnV]

Nice work, Carlos! I've done this on both of my SWs. I love the difference. I also did the two dogbone mounts on my 1997 and the tranny mounts on both. They all go toward a smoother, quieter engine, especially at idle.

Regarding your questions, I think as long as you got the new mount in there where it's supposed to be, you're good. I used an impact on mine and didn't bother with torquing them down to spec. Also, did you loosen the front right dogbone-mount bolt then retighten?

My rear-view mirror was the one that shaked before I replaced the mounts, it's amazing how replacing the mount can fix it and make the car feel so much better.

Nice video

[Spaz]

I think you have it mixed up. The engine mount to front cover nuts are the 3 nuts attaching the mount to the timing chain cover. The midrail bracket fasteners are the 2 nuts that attach the mount to the bracket on the frame rail.

[cfg83]

Spaz -

Originally Posted by Spaz

I think you have it mixed up. The engine mount to front cover nuts are the 3 nuts attaching the mount to the timing chain cover. The midrail bracket fasteners are the 2 nuts that attach the mount to the bracket on the frame rail.

This was my source for the torque info (hope it's right) :





CarloSW2

[cfg83]

ShawnV -

Originally Posted by ShawnV

Nice work, Carlos! I've done this on both of my SWs. I love the difference. I also did the two dogbone mounts on my 1997 and the tranny mounts on both. They all go toward a smoother, quieter engine, especially at idle.

Regarding your questions, I think as long as you got the new mount in there where it's supposed to be, you're good. I used an impact on mine and didn't bother with torquing them down to spec. Also, did you loosen the front right dogbone-mount bolt then retighten?
My rear-view mirror was the one that shaked before I replaced the mounts, it's amazing how replacing the mount can fix it and make the car feel so much better.

Nice video

Yeah, we did what Richpin said. That was a PITA because I didn't take the passenger wheel off (as implied in the video), I just scrunched under there, loosened it, and tightened it again.

There was also an obvious antenna wobble on the SL2 that I wish we had filmed, but we didn't "connect" the source of the wobble until after we were done.

CarloSW2

[mattelderca]

The engine shifted because you did not have your park brake on!
It is something I do without even thinking about. I have always used it as everyone should in any vehicle with any transmission.
Now, you saw how much the engine shifted, think about that pressure being put on your new rubber mounts every time you park the car. It also loads the dog bones and will cause them to weaken. To ensure there is no pressure on the mounts and transmission and drive axles, Pull into your parking spot (be it your drive or where ever) keep your foot on the brake, set the park brake, shift to neutral and take your foot off the brake. Then shift to park if it's an auto, if it's a manual I personally leave it in nuetral, others will give you different advice on the manuals.

[ZacMan-Sc1]

My top motor mount has a huge gap ..must be why it vibrates like crazy during idle/warm up. Can this be done with hand tools?

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by cfg83

Spaz -



This was my source for the torque info (hope it's right) :





CarloSW2

It does look like the descriptions on the illustrations are switched. Where did that info come from?

[cfg83]

Spaz -

A DVD I got off flee-bay. There is kind of logic to it that makes sense, at least to me :

3*24 foot lbs = 72 ft lbs
2*37 ftlbs = 74 ft lbs

Soooo, from a logical POV, the torque is "balanced".

CarloSW2

[ShawnV]

Originally Posted by ZacMan-Sc1

My top motor mount has a huge gap ..must be why it vibrates like crazy during idle/warm up. Can this be done with hand tools?

Yea. Watch the richpin video linked in this thread.

I swapped the new mount in my 1996 to my new-to-me 1997 in the parking lot at work. I also put the worn out one back on my 1996. It's got an engine replacement pending. It took me about 10 mins to do both swaps. Super easy.

You need some sockets, cheater bar, block of wood, floor jack. You can get the new mount at saturn or at a local auto parts store. I got one at saturn and one at autozone.

[BobbyP]

Originally Posted by ZacMan-Sc1

My top motor mount has a huge gap ..must be why it vibrates like crazy during idle/warm up. Can this be done with hand tools?

One of my service managers said the gap on the TAM should be less than the thickness of a credit card... I used all 3 designs on my SC, every replacement noticeably smoothed out the running of the SC... It only took a few moments to change them. I just used common sense on torquing the bolts. It seemed overkill getting out the torque wrench for this job...

[Jingledog]

Let me get this straight... There is supposed to be NO gap between the black metal bracket and the rubber? I could pass a house cat through the gap in mine.

*ads motor mounts to an increasingly long parts list*

[TXSaturn02]

Carlos:

I assume you used the original studs? A few people (including dealership - but they suggest you buy everything) like 2ndsout are now suggesting that you replace the studs when doing this job. How did the studs look on those vehicles when doing this job? What part of the country do you live in? I'm wondering if the rust belt is more likely to need the new studs.

I have purchased both the new mount and studs from the dealership and am waiting for the vibration to be annoying enough to do this task.

[alordofchaos]

Originally Posted by TXSaturn02

I'm wondering if the rust belt is more likely to need the new studs.

I re-used my studs and my car is as rust-belt as they come

Some of the cars that came with the frowny style mount had shorter studs which must be replaced when using the solid mount.

I had a frowny mount in my car when I got it, but the studs were long enough. Also, my new mount came with the studs, no need to buy separately.

My car wasn't vibrating badly, didn't even notice it at first, but I could see the rear-view mirror shaking a bit at idle.

[cfg83]

Jingledog -

Originally Posted by Jingledog

Let me get this straight... There is supposed to be NO gap between the black metal bracket and the rubber? I could pass a house cat through the gap in mine.

*ads motor mounts to an increasingly long parts list*

As Richpin said, the "ballpoint pen" test is when you should replace them.

Checking Saturn S-seriesTop Motor Mount(Second-design)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGIAt3nzs9Y

saturn 1st and 3rd generation top motor mount test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWN3tplXr8U

CarloSW2

[Spaz]

Originally Posted by Jingledog

Let me get this straight... There is supposed to be NO gap between the black metal bracket and the rubber? I could pass a house cat through the gap in mine.

Here's a photo to give you an idea of what the gap (or lack thereof) looks like on a new OEM mount.

[cfg83]

TXSaturn02 -

Originally Posted by TXSaturn02

Carlos:

I assume you used the original studs? A few people (including dealership - but they suggest you buy everything) like 2ndsout are now suggesting that you replace the studs when doing this job. How did the studs look on those vehicles when doing this job? What part of the country do you live in? I'm wondering if the rust belt is more likely to need the new studs.

I have purchased both the new mount and studs from the dealership and am waiting for the vibration to be annoying enough to do this task.

Yes. In the Richpin video, it wasn't explicitly stated that we need new bolts or studs :

Saturn Top Motor Mount R&R
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaugUfILmGE

We did everything that was done in the Richpin video, except we used a torque wrench to secure it. This means we didn't use any threadlock, either.

From what you guys have said, I think we should have bought new studs and nuts.

The studs looked fine to us. My 2nd gen 1999 SW2 went without a hitch. In the 3rd gen 2002 SL2, we replaced the 1st/3rd gen frowny mount with the non-frowny 2nd gen mount. In this situation, some of the studs were "seized" to the nut and came out *with* the nut. We just screwed them back in. Maybe that was a (big?!?!?!) mistake?

CarloSW2

[madpogue]

You only need new studs if you're going from a frowny mount to a "chunky" mount, AND the frowny mount was installed with shorter studs. The wagon wouldn't have needed new studs for sure, because it's the same size mount. It's no surprise that the sedan didn't need new studs, since the frowny mount that was on it was probably a replacement (2002 car should have gotten a "chunky" mount from the factory) and they probably left the longer studs in place, and just had more stud sticking out.

[cfg83]

madpogue -

Originally Posted by madpogue

You only need new studs if you're going from a frowny mount to a "chunky" mount, AND the frowny mount was installed with shorter studs. The wagon wouldn't have needed new studs for sure, because it's the same size mount. It's no surprise that the sedan didn't need new studs, since the frowny mount that was on it was probably a replacement (2002 car should have gotten a "chunky" mount from the factory) and they probably left the longer studs in place, and just had more stud sticking out.

We researched this issue. My friend has all his repair records. The frowny mount was OEM from the factory, but I am pretty sure he had long studs (we'll double check to make sure). He's had more problems with his 2002 than I have had with my 1999. We theorized that he got "leftover" parts because that was the last year the S-Series was made. I think Richpin is alluding to frowny mounts being OEM on 3rd gens in the title of one of his videos :

saturn 1st and 3rd generation top motor mount test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWN3tplXr8U


CarloSW2

[madpogue]

Richpin06's reference to "generation" is a reference to the mount, not to the various generation of the car itself. But indeed, the end of the model run included some "interesting" combinations, including SLs with power steering, and the legendary "SL Sport", namely, an easy way to draw down SL2 interior/exterior part inventories by installing them on what is otherwise an SL.