SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-08-2009, 03:57 PM   #1
gordonyflor
New Member
gordonyflor is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1
Default Piston hit spark plug?

My 1995 SL2 started running rough and lacked power. When I stopped, the spark plug lead on #1 was lying loose with half of the spark plug in the lead - the other half was still in the block. With a new spark plug, engine turns fine but won't quite start. Any ideas - did the piston hit the spark plug? If it did why ... and what now?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to gordonyflor's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help gordonyflor reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
gordonyflor is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 09-08-2009, 04:01 PM   #2
Fox Slaughter
Senior Member
Fox Slaughter is on a distinguished road
 
Fox Slaughter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North of Detroit
Posts: 1,697
 

1998 SC2
1996 SL2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Was the electro slammed on the old plug? Thats a sign of the piston hitting the plug.

...
I'll be sitting at my desk
With a gun in my hand, wearing a bulletproof vest singing
"My, my, my, how the time does fly, when you know you're going to die
By the end of the night."

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Fox Slaughter's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Fox Slaughter reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Fox Slaughter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2009, 04:09 PM   #3
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,262
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

The electrode does not protrude into the chamber far enough to hit the piston. The dish in the piston is too deep. If the insulator snapped right at the top of the metal shell then the plugs were possibly installed with excessive torque and the others may be cracked also. They may have been dropped in shipment also as that will crack them. Change all the plugs to NGK BKR5ESA-11 and just tighten them about 1/4 turn after that gasket contacts the head.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2009, 06:20 PM   #4
amazinghl
Master Member
amazinghl will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,970
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Engine is probably flooded. Try to start while WOT.

...
85 GLH 290whp. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215679
94 855 389xxx miles and climbing.
00 Insight 50mpg++

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to amazinghl's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help amazinghl reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
amazinghl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 10:38 AM   #5
topcat
Member
topcat will become famous soon enough
 
topcat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: boston,ma
Posts: 456

2005 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Detonation? Was the engine "pinging" prior to the plug getting blown out?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to topcat's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help topcat reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
topcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 07:41 PM   #6
Signmaster
Master Member
Signmaster is a name known to allSignmaster is a name known to allSignmaster is a name known to allSignmaster is a name known to allSignmaster is a name known to allSignmaster is a name known to all
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 5,900
 

1995 SL1
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat View Post
Detonation? Was the engine "pinging" prior to the plug getting blown out?
Actually the plug broke, but it's possible you're still onto something.

Could be a nasty holed piston crown under that broken plug.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Signmaster's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Signmaster reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Signmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 08:14 PM   #7
saturnsctwo
Master Member
saturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,327

2001 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The electrode does not protrude into the chamber far enough to hit the piston. The dish in the piston is too deep. If the insulator snapped right at the top of the metal shell then the plugs were possibly installed with excessive torque and the others may be cracked also. They may have been dropped in shipment also as that will crack them. Change all the plugs to NGK BKR5ESA-11 and just tighten them about 1/4 turn after that gasket contacts the head.
do you know the proper factory recommended torque to tighten the plugs? this is important seeing the heads are aluminum....

i always use anti seize on the plugs & tighten them to the recommended factory torque on my motorcycle seeing those heads are also aluminum...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturnsctwo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturnsctwo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturnsctwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 10:24 PM   #8
aaron95sl2
Advanced Member
aaron95sl2 is on a distinguished road
 
aaron95sl2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 526

1995 SL2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

NGK recommends NOT using anti-seize. It lubes the threads allowing you to over-tighten the plugs.

...
1995 SL2 | Fully loaded | 165k on odometer |30k on new engine w/ KB-S pistons - not a single drop of oil lost so far!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to aaron95sl2's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help aaron95sl2 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
aaron95sl2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 10:30 PM   #9
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,262
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron95sl2 View Post
NGK recommends NOT using anti-seize. It lubes the threads allowing you to over-tighten the plugs.
If applied properly the antiseize does not have any impact on the torque required.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 10:48 PM   #10
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,262
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturnsctwo View Post
do you know the proper factory recommended torque to tighten the plugs? this is important seeing the heads are aluminum....

i always use anti seize on the plugs & tighten them to the recommended factory torque on my motorcycle seeing those heads are also aluminum...
Screw them into a clean hole by hand, no ratchet. When seated then tighten until the gasket crush starts to get a higher resistance, about 1/4 to 1/2 turn. That is for the ones with a hollow gasket that crushes. If you happen to run into the solid gaskets then 13 to 16 ft-lb is plenty. You need very little antiseize to be effective.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 11:06 PM   #11
saturnsctwo
Master Member
saturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,327

2001 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Screw them into a clean hole by hand, no ratchet. When seated then tighten until the gasket crush starts to get a higher resistance, about 1/4 to 1/2 turn. That is for the ones with a hollow gasket that crushes. If you happen to run into the solid gaskets then 13 to 16 ft-lb is plenty. You need very little antiseize to be effective.
i just looked in a manual, it's 20 ft lbs just like my motorcycle. that's not much & would never overtighten...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturnsctwo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturnsctwo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturnsctwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 11:41 PM   #12
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,262
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

The 20ft-lb is generic for any brand, any condition, any gasket. It also is excessive for a clean plug with a polished plated shell into a clean aluminum hole.

You are talking about installing a spark plug and not clamping parts together with a bolt, the conditions are not equivalent.

The remaining spring in the hollow folded gasket maintains the plug tight in the head and if you use antiseize it aids in absorbing the combustion shock. If the plug is over tightened then the gasket no longer performs its holding function.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2009, 11:46 PM   #13
saturnsctwo
Master Member
saturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,327

2001 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The 20ft-lb is generic for any brand, any condition, any gasket. It also is excessive for a clean plug with a polished plated shell into a clean aluminum hole.

You are talking about installing a spark plug and not clamping parts together with a bolt, the conditions are not equivalent.

The remaining spring in the hollow folded gasket maintains the plug tight in the head and if you use antiseize it aids in absorbing the combustion shock. If the plug is over tightened then the gasket no longer performs its holding function.
well like i said i tightened it by the book. exactly 20 ft lbs (factory recommended) with some anti-seize. if it's overtightened the factory is to blame...

when i stopped at the 20 ft lb mark on the torque wrench i could have tightened it even more without that wrench easily. with the torque wrench at least i know it's not overtightened, but tightened exactly as they specify...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturnsctwo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturnsctwo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturnsctwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 03:16 PM   #14
saturntom1
Junior Member
saturntom1 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: san diego
Posts: 34

2002 SL
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturnsctwo View Post
do you know the proper factory recommended torque to tighten the plugs? this is important seeing the heads are aluminum....

i always use anti seize on the plugs & tighten them to the recommended factory torque on my motorcycle seeing those heads are also aluminum...
you are right it's important, due to the fact that diffirent types of metals expand at diffirent temperatures. if you over tighten the plugs then it is possible to crack the aluminum head at the threds of the plug insert once the engine is warm.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturntom1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturntom1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturntom1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 03:23 PM   #15
saturnsctwo
Master Member
saturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,327

2001 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saturntom1 View Post
you are right it's important, due to the fact that diffirent types of metals expand at diffirent temperatures. if you over tighten the plugs then it is possible to crack the aluminum head at the threds of the plug insert once the engine is warm.
exactly & also ya don't want to strip out the aluminum threads in the heads. an equal hideus problem...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturnsctwo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturnsctwo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturnsctwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 03:50 PM   #16
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,262
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Aluminum will oxidize and stick to steel. This happens nicely with threaded fasteners. You can screw plugs with plain steel shells into an aluminum cylinder head and tighten them only hand tight, maybe 3ft-lb at most. Wait about a year and the threads come back out stuck to the plug threads and you can start figuring out how to fix the hole. That is where the nickel plated sells came from. NGK went one step further by polishing the surface. You can still get aluminum to stick to nickel but it takes longer and does not happen that often.

A spark plug is not a bolt and all it has to accomplish is a gas tight seal and not vibrate back out of the head. The spring in the almost totally crushed hollow gasket and the shock absorbing action of the antiseize accomplish.

All of the information and theory relating to bolting does not actually directly pertain to a spark plug.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 04:53 PM   #17
saturnsctwo
Master Member
saturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,327

2001 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Aluminum will oxidize and stick to steel. This happens nicely with threaded fasteners. You can screw plugs with plain steel shells into an aluminum cylinder head and tighten them only hand tight, maybe 3ft-lb at most. Wait about a year and the threads come back out stuck to the plug threads and you can start figuring out how to fix the hole. That is where the nickel plated sells came from. NGK went one step further by polishing the surface. You can still get aluminum to stick to nickel but it takes longer and does not happen that often.

A spark plug is not a bolt and all it has to accomplish is a gas tight seal and not vibrate back out of the head. The spring in the almost totally crushed hollow gasket and the shock absorbing action of the antiseize accomplish.

All of the information and theory relating to bolting does not actually directly pertain to a spark plug.
that's where the torque ratings come in. they don't want you to tighten the plug to the point where the gasket is totally crushed. anyway, i use anti-seize on any bolt i screw into an aluminum engine block or anything aluminum.....

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturnsctwo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturnsctwo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturnsctwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 05:40 PM   #18
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,262
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

The gasket is properly well past springy at 20ft-lb. It is just about right at 1/4 to 3/8 of a turn past contact. You can check the torque with a dial type wrench.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 07:44 PM   #19
saturnsctwo
Master Member
saturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the roughsaturnsctwo is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 5,327

2001 SC2
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The gasket is properly well past springy at 20ft-lb. It is just about right at 1/4 to 3/8 of a turn past contact. You can check the torque with a dial type wrench.
i used a dial torque wrench. if it's too tight it's the saturn engineer's fault....

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to saturnsctwo's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help saturnsctwo reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
saturnsctwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2009, 07:51 PM   #20
Ghettoracer
Member
Ghettoracer is on a distinguished road
 
Ghettoracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 76

1996 SC1
Default Re: Piston hit spark plug?

I had a problem with my Honda's spark plugs hitting the piston. They're suppoed to be gapped at .044 but I re-gapped them at .036 and I havent had the problem again. I guess some of these manufacturer's that make spark plugs make the ground electrode bigger....I haven't had any issues with ones that have more than one ground electrode like Bosch +2 or +4. Could also try to reduce your gap...and not muscle down your spark plugs, 1/4 past hand tight won't make your plugs eject or leak, that's why they add the crush gaskets on spark plugs.

...
1996 Saturn SC1 Coupe - 1.9L SOHC, 5 speed MP2
Mods: AEM CAI, Exhaust Muffler, more to come...

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Ghettoracer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Ghettoracer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Ghettoracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Considering replacing spark plugs and spark plug wires - Need advice 2002SaturnMan S-Series Tech 25 10-15-2015 07:29 AM
Dealer pricing on spark plug wires and spark plugs. KeithR S-Series General 25 05-19-2011 11:52 PM
1998 sl2- oil where the spark plug boot meets the spark plug in 1st cylender scrapmedallord S-Series Tech 7 08-14-2009 11:31 PM
Spark Plug paxfam1 S-Series Tech 1 11-15-2006 10:26 AM
any other spark plug? irondiezl3 S-Series Tech 15 11-08-2006 02:57 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:17 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.