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Old 10-08-2009, 10:16 PM   #1
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Default Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Dan Gearino from the Columbus Dispatch via the Boston Herald: The toughest part for Saturn fans was the suddenness. For months, Penske Automotive Group worked on plans to buy the Saturn brand from General Motors. And then, in an instant last week, the deal evaporated. Saturn is now slated to wind down over the next year. "We were caught off guard as much as everyone," said Steve Whitman of Clintonville, vice president of the Central Ohio Saturn Car Club. Penske walked away from the deal after being unable to find a manufacturer to make Saturns after a contract with GM runs out in 2011. There's been no word on another buyer emerging.

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

A "Saturn" that was merely a rebadged import would have been an insult to the original mission anyway, imo. I think Saturn died 10 years ago when GM took away the division's autonomy and began turning it into another cookie cutter division.

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:47 PM   #3
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Originally Posted by VTHokie00SL2 View Post
A "Saturn" that was merely a rebadged import would have been an insult to the original mission anyway, imo. I think Saturn died 10 years ago when GM took away the division's autonomy and began turning it into another cookie cutter division.
Agreed! Don't you wish we could just slap somebody!?

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Old 10-09-2009, 07:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Agreed! Don't you wish we could just slap somebody!?
I would love to be first in line to; not slap; but punch Fritz Henderson, Rick Wagoner, and Bob Lutz; all in the face and knock each one of them out for their rediculously stupid decisions over the past 15+ years that drove Saturn to an early grave.

Thank you very much "Mr. CEO" my ass....

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Old 10-09-2009, 11:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

Imagine what could have happened if GM left Saturn and Spring Hill alone.

Saturn could now be using the newest polymer technology which is cheaper, allowed smaller panel gaps, and is as quiet as steel panels.

Saturn could have continued to concentrate on small fuel efficient cars and technology. They could have been the first to have used small displacement engines with turbo's.

Saturn didn't need a large SUV like the Outlook, they could have instead introduced a smaller Delta based SUV. Similar in size to the HHR.

The SKY was nice eye candy, but maybe the doors and front fenders could have been polymer like the L-series.

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Old 10-09-2009, 01:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT
I would love to be first in line to; not slap; but punch Fritz Henderson, Rick Wagoner, and Bob Lutz; all in the face and knock each one of them out for their rediculously stupid decisions over the past 15+ years that drove Saturn to an early grave.
Lutz is hardly perfect but he came back to GM late 2001. I wouldn't blame him, he gave Saturn more product in 5 years than GM had given it in the 10 or so years before he came back.

According to the Wikipedia info about him, Henderson wasn't even involved in GM's North American operations for much of the time Saturn was around/the problems Saturn had.

Wagoner made mistakes but he was mostly in a top position during this past decade or so, and I think he was putting a better effort forth than some did - you can't turn around the mistakes his predecessors made overnight.

I think you have to go back before the 3 of them to look for people to criticize.

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Imagine what could have happened if GM left Saturn and Spring Hill alone.
What do you mean, imagine? They did just that in the 1990s, you don't have to imagine it.

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Old 10-09-2009, 02:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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What do you mean, imagine? They did just that in the 1990s, you don't have to imagine it.
It should be worded, If Saturn could have been allowed to continue their exceptional engineering feats into the new millennium it would been the continuation of an automobile legend that would be as impressive as Ford's with the Model T.

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Old 10-09-2009, 02:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

Lutz had obvious disdain for Saturn's unique features like the dent resistant plastic panels, and was very critical of the S Series, which was of course Saturn's most successful car to date. Lutz was more interested in muscle cars than in producing reliable, fuel efficient vehicles for the American middle class that people like him are so out of touch with.

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Old 10-09-2009, 04:07 PM   #9
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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It should be worded, If Saturn could have been allowed to continue their exceptional engineering feats into the new millennium it would been the continuation of an automobile legend that would be as impressive as Ford's with the Model T.
That I agree more with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VTHokie00SL2
Lutz had obvious disdain for Saturn's unique features like the dent resistant plastic panels, and was very critical of the S Series, which was of course Saturn's most successful car to date.
So was pretty much any mention of the S-Series from the last 10 years in the media. Anyone can make a cheap, efficient car - it was done before the S and after it as well. The S-Series wasn't what made Saturn, it was the marketing and customer service.

Quote:
Lutz was more interested in muscle cars than in producing reliable, fuel efficient vehicles for the American middle class that people like him are so out of touch with.
Where are these terribly unreliable cars? These inefficient cars? The Cobalt XFE gets 37 mpg highway (better than a comparable Civic or Corolla), the Epsilon midsize sedans with I4/6-speed auto get better mileage than any other midsize car except the base Ford Fusion S (the other Fusion I4s get the same combined mileage as even the Epsilon I4/4AT models), and the new Equinox/Terrain four-cylinder crossovers are rated for 22/32 mpg - that's better than many lighter midsize cars.

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Old 10-09-2009, 07:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Lutz is hardly perfect but he came back to GM late 2001. I wouldn't blame him, he gave Saturn more product in 5 years than GM had given it in the 10 or so years before he came back.

According to the Wikipedia info about him, Henderson wasn't even involved in GM's North American operations for much of the time Saturn was around/the problems Saturn had.

Wagoner made mistakes but he was mostly in a top position during this past decade or so, and I think he was putting a better effort forth than some did - you can't turn around the mistakes his predecessors made overnight.

I think you have to go back before the 3 of them to look for people to criticize.
Not too many people to criticize...considering that Roger Smith (the "Father" of Saturn, was the CEO of GM from January 81 to July 1990 (when the first Saturn rolled off the line, before they went on sale in October 1990 as 1991 model year cars.)

So in essence, can we maybe lay some blame on Roger Stempel or Jack Smith; as they both followed Roger Smith but preceded Rick Wagoner. Maybe laying some blame on Jack Smith (John F. Smith, Jr.) since he was basically in control of GM and it's board of directors from 1996-2003. He was also the one responsible for terminating Oldsmobile, and responsible for the "Reorganization" of GM compared to what it was in the 1920s.

Regardless; I blame the fact that POOR business decisions that have continued to plague GM continue to this day.

I've also mentioned this before on this forum...with today's vehicles over the past couple of years, we have seen vehicles become homogenized; kind of like how it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s; where 5 vehicles shared the same design, sans the grill and headlights.

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Old 10-09-2009, 08:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
Regardless; I blame the fact that POOR business decisions that have continued to plague GM continue to this day.

I've also mentioned this before on this forum...with today's vehicles over the past couple of years, we have seen vehicles become homogenized; kind of like how it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s; where 5 vehicles shared the same design, sans the grill and headlights.
I wholeheartedly agree with both of these points.

If you look at the upcoming product lineups from this supposed 'reinvented' GM, it's like looking at the lineup from 1985, only styled newer. You've got Chevy, Buick, and now Cadillac all making carbon copies of the same stupid car, with a little front/back-end plastic differences and slightly different dashboards. They haven't learned a freakin thing.

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Old 10-09-2009, 10:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
Not too many people to criticize...considering that Roger Smith (the "Father" of Saturn, was the CEO of GM from January 81 to July 1990 (when the first Saturn rolled off the line, before they went on sale in October 1990 as 1991 model year cars.)

So in essence, can we maybe lay some blame on Roger Stempel or Jack Smith; as they both followed Roger Smith but preceded Rick Wagoner. Maybe laying some blame on Jack Smith (John F. Smith, Jr.) since he was basically in control of GM and it's board of directors from 1996-2003. He was also the one responsible for terminating Oldsmobile, and responsible for the "Reorganization" of GM compared to what it was in the 1920s.

Regardless; I blame the fact that POOR business decisions that have continued to plague GM continue to this day.
I'd tend to agree with all that. I don't think it's exclusive to top management or anything, surely there were things that happened with other people that worked within the brands. But in the end the issues with GM/Saturn originated in the 1990s.

Quote:
I've also mentioned this before on this forum...with today's vehicles over the past couple of years, we have seen vehicles become homogenized; kind of like how it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s; where 5 vehicles shared the same design, sans the grill and headlights.
I don't think there's been a time where there aren't vehicles that look similar. Designs get stale, then there are a few fresh new vehicles out and then design cues are borrowed, designers go to different brands so other cars start to look extra similar.

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Old 10-09-2009, 11:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
I would love to be first in line to; not slap; but punch Fritz Henderson, Rick Wagoner, and Bob Lutz; all in the face and knock each one of them out for their rediculously stupid decisions over the past 15+ years that drove Saturn to an early grave.

Thank you very much "Mr. CEO" my ass....
i bet they are driving hummers and crap

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Old 10-09-2009, 11:14 PM   #14
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyP View Post
Imagine what could have happened if GM left Saturn and Spring Hill alone.

Saturn could now be using the newest polymer technology which is cheaper, allowed smaller panel gaps, and is as quiet as steel panels.

Saturn could have continued to concentrate on small fuel efficient cars and technology. They could have been the first to have used small displacement engines with turbo's.

Saturn didn't need a large SUV like the Outlook, they could have instead introduced a smaller Delta based SUV. Similar in size to the HHR.

The SKY was nice eye candy, but maybe the doors and front fenders could have been polymer like the L-series.
saturn could of kept the S-Series just beef it up, then have the IOn etc etc then have the VUE since the Vue does nto look like any thing else GM makes

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Old 10-09-2009, 11:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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I wholeheartedly agree with both of these points.

If you look at the upcoming product lineups from this supposed 'reinvented' GM, it's like looking at the lineup from 1985, only styled newer. You've got Chevy, Buick, and now Cadillac all making carbon copies of the same stupid car, with a little front/back-end plastic differences and slightly different dashboards. They haven't learned a freakin thing.
they don;'t have to, the sheep will come lol

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Old 10-10-2009, 06:58 AM   #16
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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.... the Vue doesnt look like any thing else GM makes
Ummm... Take a look at the Chevy Equinox....almost a carbon copy of the newer styled VUE. Design lines are there. No doubt.

See attached Thumbnails
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2010_Chevy_Equinox_front.jpg (90.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg saturn-vue-hybrid.jpg (183.1 KB, 8 views)

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Old 10-10-2009, 08:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
I would love to be first in line to; not slap; but punch Fritz Henderson, Rick Wagoner, and Bob Lutz; all in the face and knock each one of them out for their rediculously stupid decisions over the past 15+ years that drove Saturn to an early grave.

Thank you very much "Mr. CEO" my ass....
IMHO if you're looking to slap some people around, feel free to work with your list but you have to go further back...if you want to skip Roger Smith for sentimental reasons, I understand, but even though he may be the "Father of Saturn", he's guilty too. (If you do some research about what was going on at GM during his tenure you'll see what I mean...remember the GM10 car debacle?)

I think I would look up the GM CEOs from about 1970 on...they're the parties that helped put GM into the business and financial mess that finally culminated with jettisoning Olds, Pontiac and Saturn. (and who knows what else next) All that junk that they produced in the 70s & 80s is finally coming home to roost.

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Old 10-10-2009, 11:28 AM   #18
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Ummm... Take a look at the Chevy Equinox....almost a carbon copy of the newer styled VUE. Design lines are there. No doubt.

See attached Thumbnails
Carbon copy? Look at the back:



Then there's the newest long-wheelbase Theta crossover, the GMC Terrain, which although the interior is too similar, its exterior is completely different from the Equinox (for better or worse depending on your opinion of the looks):

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Old 10-10-2009, 11:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

Is it just me or does the rear of the Terrain look strikingly similar to the Toyota Sienna

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Old 10-11-2009, 01:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: Some Saturn Owners, Retailers Have a Special Relationship with Vanishing Brand

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Carbon copy? Look at the back:



Then there's the newest long-wheelbase Theta crossover, the GMC Terrain, which although the interior is too similar, its exterior is completely different from the Equinox (for better or worse depending on your opinion of the looks):


Say what you want, but the Equinox and newer styled VUE look almost identical to me...

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