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Old 08-04-2009, 09:24 PM   #1
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Default Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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Richard Read from the Car Connection: No one can deny that French automaker Renault is on the move these days. In addition to its work with Nissan on electric vehicles, the company is in talks with Mercedes-Benz to develop a new model for Mercedes' Smart brand. And here in the U.S., the company is chatting with Roger Penske about selling Renault-badged vehicles on American lots alongside Saturn automobiles - vehicles that Renault's Samsung subsidiary may begin producing after General Motors pulls the plug in 2011.

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Old 08-05-2009, 08:38 AM   #2
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Gee, we hear Mr. Penske shopping around for manufacturers of the "new" Saturns all over the world. When is he going to shop around or continue producing Saturns in the United States, using AMERICAN workers? It seems Mr. Penske may as well live in one of those countries where he is going to hire all these workers. No thanks, I'll buy a Chevy instead.

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Old 08-05-2009, 09:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

And just which current Penske factory would you suggest he use to build these cars?????

Let's see, purchase a current GM or Chrysler factory out of bankrupcy, probably a year to accomplish. Maybe a little faster buying a closed Ford factory. So mid 2010 before he'd have the floor space to start even planning.

The fictional Penske Automotive Manufacturing (PAM?) currently has no design team, so hiring a design team, coming up with a design theme and doing phisical design, at a Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) probably 5 years. May be able to do some hiring and initial design in concert with looking for a manufacturing facility, but hard to hire good talent if your manufacturing status is in doubt. So call it 2014 before PAM could have a design ready to start tooling and manufacturing.

At least a year and probably more realistically two to tool, manufacture, road test, and certify a new design from a new manufacturer, so 2016 before this fictional PAM car could be in the showroom (showrooms, which by the way would've been shuttered for 5 years with nothing to sell and that's provided GM lives up to their bargin to provide GM rebadges to Saturn until 2011, which they've already stated they're not going to do).

Great plan you've got there!

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Old 08-05-2009, 09:44 AM   #4
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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Originally Posted by s3nfo View Post
And just which current Penske factory would you suggest he use to build these cars?????

Let's see, purchase a current GM or Chrysler factory out of bankrupcy, probably a year to accomplish. Maybe a little faster buying a closed Ford factory. So mid 2010 before he'd have the floor space to start even planning.

The fictional Penske Automotive Manufacturing (PAM?) currently has no design team, so hiring a design team, coming up with a design theme and doing phisical design, at a Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) probably 5 years. May be able to do some hiring and initial design in concert with looking for a manufacturing facility, but hard to hire good talent if your manufacturing status is in doubt. So call it 2014 before PAM could have a design ready to start tooling and manufacturing.

At least a year and probably more realistically two to tool, manufacture, road test, and certify a new design from a new manufacturer, so 2016 before this fictional PAM car could be in the showroom (showrooms, which by the way would've been shuttered for 5 years with nothing to sell and that's provided GM lives up to their bargin to provide GM rebadges to Saturn until 2011, which they've already stated they're not going to do).

Great plan you've got there!
What factories are G.M. currently using to produce Saturns??? And if G.M. is going to continue to produce Saturns for a couple more years, isn't that a source of manufacturing and co-operative design, right there?????? Seems to me that the government fast-tracked G.M.'s bankruptcy, I think they'd be interested in fast-tracking G.M.'s factories for use by Mr. Penske----if asked. Mr. Penske would have to do the same amount of work with a foreign manufacturer.

Have you heard of Mr. Penske shopping around Ford or even holding talks with a domestic manufacturer about continuing to produce cars in the U.S.? I haven't, after G.M. stops manufacturing the cars in a couple of years. Has Mr. Penske approached G.M. about continuing to build cars for Saturn or has G.M. simply said that they weren't interested? If that's the case then Mr. Penske has no choice to go overseas for cars. But again, I haven't heard anything in the news about talks with Americans about building cars here. What have you heard??? I'd really like to hear about talks with G.M. or Ford.

So, unless building cars in foreign countries is a temporary plan by Mr. Penske, I'll buy a car that feeds Americans, not foreigners.

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Old 08-05-2009, 10:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Mr. Penske has stated numerous time he ultimate goal is produce products in America but that is very un-realistic in the near term. Maybe the next generation but not now and Saturn needs a small car like last week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:d izzy:

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Old 08-05-2009, 02:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Lets see, the three left standing.....

Saturn Vue is produced at the same plant that makes the Cadillac SRX.
Saturn Aura is produced at the same plant that makes the Chevy Malibu.
Saturn Outlook is produced at the same plant that makes one of its GM twins.

I am not sure GM would want to sell any of these plants to Penske since they are making product for other GM brands.

What Penske needs is a small car that Saturn would have an exclusive on for the North American market. Ford does have a few global cars in the works that might fill the need. I would be surprised if Penske has not already contacted Ford about an exclusive on one of them for the NA market.

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Old 08-05-2009, 03:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

If you want to make sure you only feed the American workers and none of those foriegners than you had better not want to buy any of these;

Saturn ASTRA -- Antwerp, Belgium
Saturn VUE -- Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
Chevy Torrent -- Ingersoll, Ontario
Chevy Aveo -- Incheon, South Koria
Chevy Impala -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy Camaro -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy Silverado -- Oshawa, Ontario
GMC Sierra -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy HHR -- Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
Chevy Avalanche -- Silao, Mexico
Chevy Suburban -- Silao, Mexico
GMC Yukon XL -- Silao, Mexico
Buick LaCrosse -- Oshawa, Ontario
Escalade ESV -- Silao, Mexico
Escalade EXT -- Silao, Mexico
Pontiac G8 -- Elizabeth, Australia

I'm sure there are more but this was just a quick pull to show what you shouldn't be buying.

thetruth

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Old 08-05-2009, 06:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Renault coming back means I can get parts for my Encore/Appliance again?!?

You just need to look at all the success the French have had selling vehicles here to make you break out in a cold sweat.

Vive' le Saturn! Saturnfans est tres jolie!

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Old 08-05-2009, 07:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruth View Post
If you want to make sure you only feed the American workers and none of those foriegners than you had better not want to buy any of these;

Saturn ASTRA -- Antwerp, Belgium
Saturn VUE -- Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
Chevy Torrent -- Ingersoll, Ontario
Chevy Aveo -- Incheon, South Koria
Chevy Impala -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy Camaro -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy Silverado -- Oshawa, Ontario
GMC Sierra -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy HHR -- Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
Chevy Avalanche -- Silao, Mexico
Chevy Suburban -- Silao, Mexico
GMC Yukon XL -- Silao, Mexico
Buick LaCrosse -- Oshawa, Ontario
Escalade ESV -- Silao, Mexico
Escalade EXT -- Silao, Mexico
Pontiac G8 -- Elizabeth, Australia

I'm sure there are more but this was just a quick pull to show what you shouldn't be buying.

thetruth
Well come on---let's make it worse! BUY AMERICAN.

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Old 08-05-2009, 10:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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Originally Posted by MiSaturn View Post
Renault coming back means I can get parts for my Encore/Appliance again?!?

You just need to look at all the success the French have had selling vehicles here to make you break out in a cold sweat.

Vive' le Saturn! Saturnfans est tres jolie!
I remember seeing a 2 year old 1983 AMC Alliance at a used car lot. The ignition switch was shot, and they started it by touching 2 wires together... There's a sign... LOL...

My friend bought a 1978 Ford Fairmont instead... The Ford turned out to be a good car he drove it for 4 years and sold it for more than he originally paid for it.

I admire the unique style of the Citroen C6, but I know it would most likely be a mechanics nightmare like most French cars. They reviewed one on Top Gear last year. It has to be one of the most comfortable cars in the world.

In the 80's a friend of mine had a Citroen SM, and it's hydraulic suspension was amazing. It was the only car I rode in that can hit a speed bump at most any speed and not bounce the car hardly at all. That's why the French use Citroen's as camera cars at the race tracks because of their steady ride.


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Old 08-05-2009, 11:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetruth View Post
If you want to make sure you only feed the American workers and none of those foriegners than you had better not want to buy any of these;

Saturn ASTRA -- Antwerp, Belgium
Saturn VUE -- Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
Chevy Torrent -- Ingersoll, Ontario
Chevy Aveo -- Incheon, South Koria
Chevy Impala -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy Camaro -- Oshawa, Ontario
Chevy Silverado -- Oshawa, Ontario
GMC Sierra -- Oshawa, Ontario Also built in Fort Wayne, IN and Flint, MI
Chevy HHR -- Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
Chevy Avalanche -- Silao, Mexico
Chevy Suburban -- Silao, Mexico Also manufactured in Arlington, TX
GMC Yukon XL -- Silao, Mexico Also manufactured in Arlington, TX
Buick LaCrosse -- Oshawa, Ontario
Escalade ESV -- Silao, Mexico Also manufactured in Arlington, TX
Escalade EXT -- Silao, Mexico
Pontiac G8 -- Elizabeth, Australia

I'm sure there are more but this was just a quick pull to show what you shouldn't be buying.

thetruth
So no they are not all assembled outside of the US

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Old 08-06-2009, 05:46 AM   #12
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s3nfo View Post
And just which current Penske factory would you suggest he use to build these cars?????

Let's see, purchase a current GM or Chrysler factory out of bankrupcy, probably a year to accomplish. Maybe a little faster buying a closed Ford factory. So mid 2010 before he'd have the floor space to start even planning.

The fictional Penske Automotive Manufacturing (PAM?) currently has no design team, so hiring a design team, coming up with a design theme and doing phisical design, at a Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) probably 5 years. May be able to do some hiring and initial design in concert with looking for a manufacturing facility, but hard to hire good talent if your manufacturing status is in doubt. So call it 2014 before PAM could have a design ready to start tooling and manufacturing.

At least a year and probably more realistically two to tool, manufacture, road test, and certify a new design from a new manufacturer, so 2016 before this fictional PAM car could be in the showroom (showrooms, which by the way would've been shuttered for 5 years with nothing to sell and that's provided GM lives up to their bargin to provide GM rebadges to Saturn until 2011, which they've already stated they're not going to do).

Great plan you've got there!
Thanks for being logicial. Some make it seem like designing and building a car from the ground up is an easy task. Its not and Penske has made it quite clear this is not a traditional car company anymore.

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Old 08-06-2009, 08:19 AM   #13
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

And we've already gotten a real load of what the "American Worker [aka UAW]" and GM really think of their American brothers and sisters. They kept screwing the public with junk from the 70s to thru the 00s. And what did they do the last time they pulled that "Buy American" crap in the 70s and 80s: gave us more junk. Thanks my brothas and sistahs and the Big Three.

No thanks. Consider these bail out bucks PAYMENT IN FULL.
I've never owned a foreign branded or built car, but I won't rule that out in future for some ill advised attempt to keep producers of garbage in business. And especially not out of a sense of misguided ONE WAY loyalty.

Nothing patriotic about embracing the zero.

Last edited by Citation84; 08-06-2009 at 08:25 AM..

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Old 08-06-2009, 09:32 AM   #14
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

"Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S."

Cool. Little rustbuckets that blow head gaskets, and you can't buy parts for them, and are happiest on the back of a tow truck.

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Old 08-06-2009, 09:36 AM   #15
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilP10 View Post
Thanks for being logicial. Some make it seem like designing and building a car from the ground up is an easy task. Its not and Penske has made it quite clear this is not a traditional car company anymore.
So why not work with G.M. designers (who, by the way, have done a great job of design on the new Saturns) and continue the relationship past where it's going now? If Penske is going to have his cars made by foreigners, again, why not by U.S. workers???? Design them himself, eventually, but build them here.

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Old 08-06-2009, 10:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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And we've already gotten a real load of what the "American Worker [aka UAW]" and GM really think of their American brothers and sisters. They kept screwing the public with junk from the 70s to thru the 00s. And what did they do the last time they pulled that "Buy American" crap in the 70s and 80s: gave us more junk. Thanks my brothas and sistahs and the Big Three.

No thanks. Consider these bail out bucks PAYMENT IN FULL.
I've never owned a foreign branded or built car, but I won't rule that out in future for some ill advised attempt to keep producers of garbage in business. And especially not out of a sense of misguided ONE WAY loyalty.

Nothing patriotic about embracing the zero.
G.M. was not in the position of "keeping up with the Joneses" because of high costs of labor, etc. Simply couldn't compete with "new-foreign" producers because of costs that any one of you would have supported through your union. Now that the playing field is finally leveled (through bankruptcy) they will keep up or who knows surpass, the competition in quality and value.

Buying foreign is nothing more than under-mining the American way of life which will affect every single one of us Americans. Are you listening Mr. Penske????

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Old 08-06-2009, 10:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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So why not work with G.M. designers (who, by the way, have done a great job of design on the new Saturns) and continue the relationship past where it's going now? If Penske is going to have his cars made by foreigners, again, why not by U.S. workers???? Design them himself, eventually, but build them here.
Because GM needs to sell cars to get themselves out of bankruptcy and pay back the "stimulus" money so the Government won't have the leverage to tell them who to fire, who to hire and what to pay them. No way in h-e double hockey sticks they're gonna provide any help to a competitor to build cars to take sales away from GM produced vehicles.

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Old 08-06-2009, 11:07 AM   #18
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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. No way in h-e double hockey sticks they're gonna provide any help to a competitor to build cars to take sales away from GM produced vehicles.
Then why would that logic apply to any foreign auto manufacturer?

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Old 08-06-2009, 03:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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Then why would that logic apply to any foreign auto manufacturer?
If the auto manufacture has zero presence in North America today.

All they have to do is build the car to Penske specifications and the ship car and parts to Penske to distribute to Saturn dealers. It would be a win for the auto manufacture by getting additional sales and a win for Penske since it would give them a unique small car for Saturn in NA. The manufacture could be a foreign company or a domestic startup needing to tap into an existing sales/service network.

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Old 08-06-2009, 05:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Renault to Help Mercedes with New Smart Vehicle, Plans Return To U.S.

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The manufacture could be a foreign company or a domestic startup needing to tap into an existing sales/service network.
Exactly, foreign or domestic but I disagree on the "start up" aspect. So why is Mr. Penske bent on using foreigners to build and or design---especially now that the financial competition is leveled, after the American auto companies restructuring? Doesn't sound very patriotic to me. I think he should move to one of those countries---maybe France. The French do make good food, but not cars.

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