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Old 07-05-2009, 09:59 PM   #1
FrstrtdStrnOwnr
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Default 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Hi all, am new here but seem to think i have been here all day. I have a 1993 Saturn SL2 with a lil over 200k miles (about 100k on current motor). 2 days ago after driving home from the gas station (i did not get gas) i lost power, car was missing/rough idle. After i got it home, I found oil above the #2 and #3 spark plugs....so i knew, valve cover gasket time...replaced the gasket, changed plugs (copper ones) and new plug wires. Started it up, still rough/missing. When driving it lacked pickup etc. So today, swapped the ECTS...still the same. Replaced the coil for #2 and #3 cylinders...still no change. Took the ignition control module off and took it with all 3 coils (i had bought one) to have it all tested. All 3 coils were fine, primary and secondary circuits...Tested the ignition module at 2 different autozone stores. Nothing wrong with the module. Traded the coil positions and STILL no spark from 2 and 3.

So, now here i am with no clue what next except maybe the knock sensor or the crankshaft sensor. I thought maybe the wiring for 2/3 for the module may be bad but i would tend to think if i had a short it may have started as intermittent. It runs great for a 2 cylinder engine, but i would like to fix it, just don't know what else to do...HELP PLEASE??

p.s. no engine codes either...used thwe paper clip and all i got was 12 12 12 12 12 12 etc

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Old 07-05-2009, 10:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Welcome to the Board.

Pull the plug wires off of the coils. Have someone crank the engine for you and see if you are getting spark from all four coil towers to ground. If you are then you likely have a problem with the wires and or coils. After a good oil soaking I wouldn't doubt that the wires and plugs are carbon tracked for cyl 2 & 3. check the plugs and wires for blick lines. If they are there then the spark is going to ground before going through the plug.

...
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:54 PM   #3
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Dizzy Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Does it matter that we put new wires on after we cleaned up the oil soak, AND we changed the plugs and gapped em properly? Would u still suggest this course of action?

We have double and triple checked the plugs and wires and i have cleaned up the back of the module, cleaned up any corrosion on the battery terminals also. The mounting bolts for the ign module were cleaned also.

(sorry i have been at this for 11 hours today and am brain dead/feisty/pissed/and anything else un fun you can think of...so if i say anything that sounds less than appreciative, its NOT...i am at wits end.)

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Old 07-06-2009, 03:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Any news on this?
Swap coils? are spark plug wires on good and tight? Wire loom to the coil pack is intact? Connection at coil pack is clean and tight?

...
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Old 07-06-2009, 03:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

coils were swapped and same 2 cylinders did not spark, took and had the module and coil packs tested (all 3) and resistances on all 3 were within expected range for both primary and secondary...the module was tested at 2 diff autozone locations, each place did it repetitively...brand new plugs and wires like i said, and replaced ECTS.

So, for doing this next test (where i take all 4 coil wires off at the coil packs, what exactly should i be looking for, the coil posts to arc across 4 to 1, and also 2 to 3? we have alrdy tested each and every spark plug wire individually with a new spark plug in each wire, grounded outside the vehicle, and watched 4 and 1 (no matter which of the 3 coil packs were attached) show spark across the gap, whereas 2 and 3 had none. (the 4 spark plugs were still in the vehicle, this was a 5th spark plug)

also, the 4 bolts that hold the module in place had all 4 cleaned to where each should be making clean and solid contact to the mounting surface and the plate on the bottom side of the module has been cleaned also.

basically the problem, unless i have bad brand new wires, plugs, etc..., seems to be outside or before the ignition module, ie a diff sensor, or wiring...altho if it was a wiring issue, wouldn't it quite possible have been an intermittent issue before a "full-blown won't work"...i have 0 broken or damaged wires at the module connection that i have found...and the only oil leakage was into 2 and 3 prior to this problem from a leaking gasket...

speaking of leaking gasket, would having it leak and oil soak 2/3 cause any other issue than a fouled plug? Cuz if not i would think having new copper plugs, duralast plug wires etc AFTER replacing the gasket to have corrected most any problem.

again guys, any help is much appreciated no matter what impression one may get from my tone, its just frustration making me silly/stupid

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Old 07-06-2009, 05:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Frustration? What frustration? You're a Saturn owner with a few "issues" no more different than any other car owner with peculiar problems. You'd be ecstatic not inheriting the Vue's VTI (cvt) nightmare transmission of a few years back!? I'm not completely sure but the issue seems to be obvious - your ignition module that both ignition coils plugs into.

From repeated tests of swapping all three ignition coils around in the 1-4 spot, it appears that the 2-3 coil position on the ignition module has failed making the ignition module the failure. If you can, go to your local junk yard and buy the whole set of ignition module/coils as they're cheaper than buying the ignition module alone from the auto store.

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Old 07-06-2009, 07:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

i guess u may have missed the part about where i said that we had the module tested at 2 different autozone stores...is their machine wrong?...if so ok...thats why i am frustrated btw...if their machine said it tested as good...and still no spark for 2 and 3...

running out of ideas

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Old 07-06-2009, 07:35 AM   #8
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

ok i am going to list what we have done and in order in case i am not giving a clear accounting of what we have done and in what order.

1. replaced valve cover gasket.

2. replaced plugs (with copper)

3. replaced spark plug wires

4. replaced ECTS.

5. replaced coil from the 2 and 3 side of module.

6. took ignition module to autozone number one along with all 3 coils (1 new, 2 old)

7. ignition module tested as good

8. reinstalled module and swapped coil locations (1/4 to 2/3 spot)

9. removed module and took all 3 to a second autozone to have tested.

10. ignition module tested as good. tested all 3 coils, both primary and secondary circuit...resistances for all 3 tested within the spec. (if not mistaken, about 10 for first and .8 for second circuit, but we had the required range and circuit info in front of us and it was within on multiple tests).

The results are still after each thing...2 and 3 is not firing/sparking and car is running on 2 of 4 cylinders.

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Old 07-06-2009, 08:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

I did follow this post. If I'm not mistaken, the cps timing signals goes directly to the PCM, the PCM initiates the ignition system by feeding signals to the ignition control module, and the ignition control module then generates the voltage signals to switch on each ignition coil (in simple terms). That makes the cps and PCM in good working order and leaves the ignition module and ignition coils suspect. Rotating the coils proved that only half the ignition module is working (and not half the PCM if you're going in that direction unless there's a major wiring issue between the PCM and the ignition module. The ignition coils work and you're left with the ignition module.

For more background info, the PCM also turns on the fuel pump and pulses the injectors. Rarely has a PCM failed. So the PCM actually times the ignition module to turn on and off (the primary circuit to control the secondary high voltage generation) but if the ignition module fails, no spark. I don't know how modules are tested by Autozone but unless I have a very clear idea of their testing method I would do my own testing first. Suggesting another ignition module/coil set from the junk yard has worked out cheaper than store bought as used ones are reliable.

If you have doubts about the ignition module, you're left to troubleshoot the wiring between the PCM and ignition module and then contemplating a PCM issue.

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Old 07-06-2009, 08:14 AM   #10
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Would the CPS have anything to do with this as in if it were not working, would it cause just one coil to fire? and thank you for the replies...maybe there is a short somewhere in the module and whatever signal is going could be taking the easiest path and firing 1/4? This would maybe explain why it tests ok at autozone but doesn't work...

hence u see my frustration too if that module is actually bad but tested as good, or even more my lack of ideas if the module is good.

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Old 07-06-2009, 09:21 AM   #11
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Sorry, I forgot about your frustration.

Either the crank position sensor works or not but there have been many here with intermittent cps failures. You do not have a cps problem simply because the engine runs, period. The two cps failures, one outright and the other intermittent, kills the engine at random. They both exhibit the same symptom; the starter will crank but the engine never fires up. The intermittent cps failure needs the engine to cool off before it decides to work again until heat makes the cps fail again. You don't have this problem.

I briefly described the EFI system previously to give you an overall view of the system; the cps only generates precise timing signals when the engine rotates, these signals turn on the PCM to run the EFI system - the fuel pump, ignition system, and injectors. No cps output = no fuel pump, no ignition/spark, and no injector pulses, a DEAD engine. The ignition module is down stream from this and is a sub function of the PCM. With the PCM telling the ignition module when to turn on and turn off, the signals from the PCM are considered dependable/reliable as long as the wiring is intact. This makes your issue somewhere between the ignition coils (they all work) and the PCM - the ignition module.

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Old 07-06-2009, 09:40 AM   #12
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

The 95 and earlier ignition functions differently than the 96 and later system. Many of the functions that are performed in the PCM in the 96 and newer system and performed in the ICM in the early system.

The CPS feeds the ICM directly in the early system. The early system is very sensitive to the applied voltage. A bad battery coupled with a weak alternator can cause this problem. As the ICM and coils have passed the off car diagnostic I would be checking alternator and battery condition. Autozone can do that with the parts on the car or you can take the battery in to the store.

See this thread, post #2 for the FSM description of how the ignition system(DIS) functions in this car. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=137425
There are a couple of other threads relating to these types of problems with this vintage ignition.

This thread may help also: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=132235

Last edited by OldNuc; 07-06-2009 at 09:54 AM..

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Old 07-06-2009, 10:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

To the O.P.
Does any of this new info help? You will solve this one

...
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:47 PM   #14
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

ok tested the battery and alternator in the car at advanced auto parts..both are fine...here are the actual details to go with it just in case it sheds light on anything...

Battery Test:Voltage 12.36V
measured 720 CCA
rated 720 CCA
temperature 109 deg F

Starter Test:Voltage 11.10V
Amps 169.7A
Time 875ms

Charging System Test:
NO LOAD LOADED (high beams/blower on high)
14.00V 13.88V
12.3A 10.4A

Drain Test:
0.07A PASS


I have found an ignition module at the junkyard for $25 so i am going to go get that now and replace the module and see what happens...

Otherwise, I am still at a loss.

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Old 07-06-2009, 04:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

OK..thanks to all for the help...got the $25 ignition module/coil pack from junkyard...runs like a charm...smooth as a...well u know...

Sooo....as for autozone ignition module tests...FORGET IT...it may work to tell you yep its bad if its completely bad, but otherwise not worth the time and drive...like i said earlier...tested at 2 diff stores..they read as good/passed all its tests...

SO...CASE CLOSED.

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Old 07-06-2009, 04:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

oh one little added note...after driving on 2 cylinders for 3 days i damn near fell out of my seat shifting into second gear today...i was laughing pretty hard after that happened too.

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Old 07-06-2009, 04:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Well, you beat me to it. After the battery looked OK I was going to suggest a new ICM. If all of that info made sense then you spotted that it can half fail.

Your battery should be at 12.6 to 12.8 after sitting all night. And, the battery voltage with the engine running at 1500 RPM should be 14.2 to 14.7. If you have a good DVM you might want to check those numbers as your alternator and battery looked a bit low.

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Old 07-06-2009, 05:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

thanks again to all and yeah ill keep an eye on it...for now i am just basking in the moment...its a nice day outside, my car is running so smooth (it acts like it only has about 20k miles on it not 200k+)

I mean i know i need to get some struts/alignment work and a new driver's seat over the next bit, but have had the car for 7-8 mos, paid 700 for it and this was the first real issue i had. Also next is the A/C..not worked since i bought it...have yet to be worried...beats 2 feet slapping pavement or grabbing a ride with family...

(sorry guys...am on cloud 9 atm)

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Old 07-06-2009, 05:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

If you hadn't already gotten another ICM I was going to suggest doing so.
Mine pissed me off too, only it was intermittent. Only sometimes would cyl x die (same coil pack each time, never bothered with which cyl). I'd take off the coilpack, put it back on and it'd be happy for 5ft to ~3 miles and I'd have to do it again. Put the ICM from a '94 SL on it and it's been happy ever since.

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Old 07-06-2009, 05:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: 93 SL2 DOHC no spark on cyl 2 and 3

Are you sure the injectors for 2 and 3 are even spraying?

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