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Old 05-03-2009, 09:37 PM   #1
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Default Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

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Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Richard Truett from Automotive News: GM spent billions in recent years developing terrific new vehicles and impressive new fuel-saving technology. Now much of this effort will be wasted

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Old 05-03-2009, 10:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

This Automotive News article , and those Charlie also posted today from the Detroit News , and the LATimes , all feature thematic unity. The financial imperative when in red ink , is to jettison profitless divisions. Yet the BigIron cars have lost relatively greater market share , and the small/fuel-efficient divisions have been starved because they had lagging sales when no one cared about fuel efficiency {again}.

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Old 05-04-2009, 05:51 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

I've said it before.

These guys and gals just don't get it.

The first modern small car was the Corvair. Pretty good car but Ralph Nader needed to make a name for himself and chose GM's Corvair to do it.

The ChevyII/Nova was not a small car. Just smaller.

The Vega was a disaster. Mass produced robot made junk from Lordstown. An aluminum engine that melted.

The Chevette was pretty good. But few options. GM never changed it other than cosmetics. And then just quit.

The Monza was junk. Designed for the ill-fated Wankel engine.

The Citation was awful. Right up there with the worst GM junk ever.

And as the Japanese cars kept coming in in droves, GM floundered the concept of a quality small car. From Suzuki to Daewoo to Isuzu to Opel and more. GM just gave up on small cars. Management at GM lacking.

Saturn was a good idea - but whithered on the vine.

The guys and gals at GM just don't get it. Make a high quality comfortable small car.

The management at GM just doesn't get it.

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Old 05-04-2009, 06:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unit731 View Post
I've said it before.

These guys and gals just don't get it.

The first modern small car was the Corvair. Pretty good car but Ralph Nader needed to make a name for himself and chose GM's Corvair to do it.

The ChevyII/Nova was not a small car. Just smaller.

The Vega was a disaster. Mass produced robot made junk from Lordstown. An aluminum engine that melted.

The Chevette was pretty good. But few options. GM never changed it other than cosmetics. And then just quit.

The Monza was junk. Designed for the ill-fated Wankel engine.

The Citation was awful. Right up there with the worst GM junk ever.

And as the Japanese cars kept coming in in droves, GM floundered the concept of a quality small car. From Suzuki to Daewoo to Isuzu to Opel and more. GM just gave up on small cars. Management at GM lacking.

Saturn was a good idea - but whithered on the vine.

The guys and gals at GM just don't get it. Make a high quality comfortable small car.

The management at GM just doesn't get it
.
Very well said and a great trip down memory lane.

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Old 05-04-2009, 07:27 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unit731 View Post

The guys and gals at GM just don't get it. Make a high quality comfortable small car.

The management at GM just doesn't get it.
I personally would say GM has made that quality, comfy small car. It's the Saturn Astra.

And I agree, they don't get it and probably never will. Many think just because it has a Chevy badge on it, everyone will buy it. WRONG!

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Old 05-04-2009, 01:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

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Originally Posted by ChgoBlues View Post
I personally would say GM has made that quality, comfy small car. It's the Saturn Astra.

And I agree, they don't get it and probably never will. Many think just because it has a Chevy badge on it, everyone will buy it. WRONG!
Eh, I remember getting in some Saturn Astra (I think it was?) and it still lacked in the rear passenger area. Same can be said for the Vue. Yes, couldn't fit inside it worth a ****.

Sorry, GM still sucks for the most part when it comes to the comfortable, small car. If you want a comfortable, roomy, small car that's American made you buy a Ford Focus. If you want something mexican made you get a Fusion (or PT Cruiser, although the PT was lacking in rear cargo space though.)

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Old 05-04-2009, 01:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unit731 View Post

The Chevette was pretty good. But few options. GM never changed it other than cosmetics. And then just quit.

The Citation was awful. Right up there with the worst GM junk ever.
Hey. I owned both of these before my Saturns. The Citation first, got me through the first year of high school and the Chevette; second. The C'Vette got me through high school and into college before I bought my 94 SC1 in '97 when it was 3 years old.

They weren't BAD cars...but that was long before I knew anything about how to take care of cars...that all changed when I got my Saturn.

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Old 05-04-2009, 02:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

I owned a Chevette as the daily driver alternative to my 70 Nova SS. It wasn't fast, fun to drive, or much to look at but that little 'vette took a beating and kept going.

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Old 05-04-2009, 03:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robor007 View Post
I owned a Chevette as the daily driver alternative to my 70 Nova SS. It wasn't fast, fun to drive, or much to look at but that little 'vette took a beating and kept going.
I put a 160k on mine before dumping it. The guy drove it another 40k before somebody threw a brick the windsheild.

It wasn't the greatest car, but like you said it took a beating. The floorboards rotted out (replaced with "No Parking" signs). And the brakes needed pads every 15k. But the motor always started. The original intention of that car was for GM to make it FWD.

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Old 05-04-2009, 07:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventureoflink View Post
Sorry, GM still sucks for the most part when it comes to the comfortable, small car. If you want a comfortable, roomy, small car that's American made you buy a Ford Focus.
I would take the new Mazda3, smiley face and all, over the new Focus, which has new sheetmetal and interior but rides on the Y2K mechanicals. Hopefully an updated Focus will be here soon.


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Old 05-04-2009, 07:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GR898SL2 View Post
I would take the new Mazda3, smiley face and all, over the new Focus, which has new sheetmetal and interior but rides on the Y2K mechanicals. Hopefully an updated Focus will be here soon.

So I take it Americans REALLY can't make the comfortable, roomy, small car eh? I gave a BOTD to the Focus, since it's the only 4cyl car that Ford makes in the states IIRC. Fusions are indeed Mexican made.

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Old 05-04-2009, 08:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unit731 View Post
Saturn was a good idea - but whithered on the vine.

The guys and gals at GM just don't get it. Make a high quality comfortable small car.

The management at GM just doesn't get it.
The GM dolts that run the US operations don't get it, Opel makes great smaller cars with higher content but the dolts that run the show here won't bring them here or their great cTDI motors. If GM spent half the money they didn't spend on developing a minivan on getting those motors able to be sold here, they'd be on top of the heap rather than in the recycle bin.

VW has existed for decades making high featured, smaller cars and they make profits. What about the VW model don't the dolts at GM get??

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Old 05-04-2009, 08:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventureoflink View Post
Eh, I remember getting in some Saturn Astra (I think it was?) and it still lacked in the rear passenger area. Same can be said for the Vue. Yes, couldn't fit inside it worth a ****.

Sorry, GM still sucks for the most part when it comes to the comfortable, small car. If you want a comfortable, roomy, small car that's American made you buy a Ford Focus. If you want something mexican made you get a Fusion (or PT Cruiser, although the PT was lacking in rear cargo space though.)
I had to drive a rental Focus when my Astra was totaled.. One word, Cheap! It had hard plastic all thru it and the seats sucked.. It handled like a well, Chevette.. Maybe it was just the model that I had, but I kept thinking how can this thing be in the same class as the Astra..

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Old 05-04-2009, 11:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piney View Post
The GM dolts that run the US operations don't get it, Opel makes great smaller cars with higher content but the dolts that run the show here won't bring them here or their great cTDI motors. If GM spent half the money they didn't spend on developing a minivan on getting those motors able to be sold here, they'd be on top of the heap rather than in the recycle bin.
I'm going to assume that cTDI has something to do with diesel, right? if so, three letters that are keeping it away from the states: E. P. A. it's not GM's fault, blame it on the EPA.

hell even the Honda Civic diesels won't pass over here unless you wanna deal with a stick (or put uberexpensive fuel injectors in the autotragics.) What people (specifically the US) need to do is learn off of either VW or even Mercedes with the UREA, so long as the UREA:

1) isn't an inconvenience to the consumer in general (yes there's some thing in it that at some point it only allows ten starts or else it locks you out, and it has to be changed out every 10k miles or so)
2) allows us to put in the Greasecar kits
3) allows us to put in the K&N kits
and 4) SHUTS THE **** UP

I'd say it's all gravy. Either that, or lessen the F up on the EPA restrictions on diesels.

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Old 05-05-2009, 05:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventureoflink View Post
I'm going to assume that cTDI has something to do with diesel, right? if so, three letters that are keeping it away from the states: E. P. A. it's not GM's fault, blame it on the EPA.
The same lobbying money that was spent to keep the CAFE low could have bee spent lobbying for a European diesel standard and refining the motors they already have over there. Honda and VW somehow have made non-urea diesels that are great motors. It is possible but the money wasn't spent on it here & that can be blamed squarely on the GM dolts.

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Old 05-05-2009, 07:09 AM   #16
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Roll Eyes Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Is GM throwing the baby out with the bath water? Hell yeah.

Why didn't GM keep Pontiac? Pontiac sells 2 times as many cars as Buick. What the hell, Saturn out-sold Buick last year! Saturn has taken a beating this b/c of the big questions floating around.

The reason for small cars, in MY OPINION for GM, is so they can sell big profit making SUV's. The CAFE standards have ruined GM. They played this game for so long, now they are paying the price. And they seem to be playing it to lose. I don't get it. They are to throw away a fuel efficent 2 door sports cars, sky & solstice?? Throw away the Vibe? Throw away the Astra? Throw away the Turbo Mid-sized Saabs? I don't get it.


And WTH people? Have you forgotten about the Cavalier? GM has sold MILLIONS of them. And in various forms though the years. Some better than others. And people said, in 1984, why make another car brand? (ahem, that would be Saturn) Why not just make it the next generation cavalier? They could have. Should have? I am glad they didn't. I am damn-glad at that. The Grand am and it sisters were decent cars. Please don't forget them. Espeically the 80's editions. Later they became bloated and therefore not as much fun to drive but sold tons of them.

My solution for GM would be to eventually drop all the middle-brand names and call them GMC. So that you would have Chevy, GMC, and caddy. And let all the over laps be consolidated when the next generation comes out.

Appearently they don't listen to me. Oh well. All I want is one good American made Saturn car that is:
Durable
simple
reliable
cheap to operate
and a lasting value.

G'day Peep's. A-

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Old 05-05-2009, 12:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piney View Post
Honda and VW somehow have made non-urea diesels that are great motors.
Right, but as I said before, the Honda diesels won't pass over in the States unless:

1) you use a stick shift
or 2) put in some uberexpensive fuel injector with the autotragics

Quote:
Originally Posted by piney View Post
It is possible but the money wasn't spent on it here & that can be blamed squarely on the GM dolts.
As they say, "where there's a will there's a way.." so with that said you are right, it's also partially GM's fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
Why didn't GM keep Pontiac? Pontiac sells 2 times as many cars as Buick. What the hell, Saturn out-sold Buick last year! Saturn has taken a beating this b/c of the big questions floating around.
You got to also consider that the US imports from CHINA lots.. so as long as they have a product (in this case Buick) that's doing good there it's all good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
The reason for small cars, in MY OPINION for GM, is so they can sell big profit making SUV's.
eh..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
The CAFE standards have ruined GM.
..the heck is CAFE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
They played this game for so long, now they are paying the price. And they seem to be playing it to lose.
Same can be said for Chrysler and Ford (somewhat.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
I don't get it. They are to throw away a fuel efficent 2 door sports cars, sky & solstice?? Throw away the Vibe? Throw away the Astra? Throw away the Turbo Mid-sized Saabs? I don't get it.
Because we Americans are so immune to change and innovation and we gotta have everything huge and boat-sized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
My solution for GM would be to eventually drop all the middle-brand names and call them GMC. So that you would have Chevy, GMC, and caddy. And let all the over laps be consolidated when the next generation comes out.
Seeing a GMC car would actually be very weird and WTF-ish, given all they make is trucks.

If GMC would focus on heavy duty trucks (yes, like the kind moving men use, if not the semis) then that would cut down on some of the badge engineering significantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossao1 View Post
Oh well. All I want is one good American made Saturn car that is:
Durable
simple
reliable
cheap to operate
and a lasting value.
Add comfortable and plenty of rear passenger room and I'll agree with you ten fold.

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Last edited by adventureoflink; 05-05-2009 at 01:05 PM..

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Old 05-05-2009, 04:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GR898SL2 View Post
I would take the new Mazda3, smiley face and all, over the new Focus, which has new sheetmetal and interior but rides on the Y2K mechanicals. Hopefully an updated Focus will be here soon.

I saw a 3 on the road recently. You don't notice the smiley face as much as in pictures.

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Old 05-05-2009, 04:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Why didn't GM keep Pontiac? Pontiac sells 2 times as many cars as Buick. What the hell, Saturn out-sold Buick last year!
Not in China

Quote:
I don't get it. They are to throw away a fuel efficent 2 door sports cars, sky & solstice?? Throw away the Vibe? Throw away the Astra?
Throw away the Turbo Mid-sized Saabs? I don't get it.
None of those cars sell enough in the US or Canada
The Astra will stick around in Europe once opel is sold off.


Quote:
And WTH people? Have you forgotten about the Cavalier? GM has sold MILLIONS of them. And in various forms though the years. Some better than others. And people said, in 1984, why make another car brand? (ahem, that would be Saturn) Why not just make it the next generation cavalier? They could have. Should have? I am glad they didn't. I am damn-glad at that. The Grand am and it sisters were decent cars. Please don't forget them. Espeically the 80's editions. Later they became bloated and therefore not as much fun to drive but sold tons of them.
Decent cars, yes but also continued GMs reputation for making uninspired, unreliable junk.

Quote:
Appearently they don't listen to me. Oh well. All I want is one good American made car that is:
Durable
simple
reliable
cheap to operate
and a lasting value.
Toyota Corolla

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Old 05-05-2009, 04:40 PM   #20
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2005 ION-1 Sedan
Default Re: Is GM Tossing Product Babies Out with the Bathwater?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adventureoflink View Post
So I take it Americans REALLY can't make the comfortable, roomy, small car eh? I gave a BOTD to the Focus, since it's the only 4cyl car that Ford makes in the states IIRC. Fusions are indeed Mexican made.
Mexico is America to the car companies.

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