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Old 02-14-2009, 02:32 PM   #1
ejs
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2002 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
1995 SW1
Default 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

Hi,

New member here. This looks like a great site for Saturn owners.

I had an incident with my LW300 (70K miles) a few days ago that concerns me. I'd normally bring it to the dealer for anything that requires special knowledge but I no longer have a dealer nearby so I lose 1/2 day of work any time I take it in. Before I do that or take my chances with a local shop, I'd appreciate any tips I can get here.

First, the story. I was on the highway in the left lane and needed to get over for an exit. The only break in traffic was ahead of me, so I hit the gas, full-throttle. No problem accelerating, but then the car suddenly lost power. It was like the engine had cut out. Luckily I still had steering and brakes. A "Reduced Power" light came on, but there didn't seem to be any power. I had to coast to the exit and then pull over to the shoulder, in traffic, while on the ramp.

After I shut it off and then started it again, it was fine other than that the Check Engine light was now on. It has full power, and I've had no problems since the initial incident. I haven't tried full throttle since then -- a little gun-shy, I guess, plus I wanted to get an idea what might be going on before stress-testing it any further.

So, now I'm learning about engine codes. I went to AutoZone to get the codes pulled, and the four shown above in the subject line came up. According to the printout, P0606 means an Engine Control Module internal performance condition, and the probable cause is a failed ECM module. However, I read another thread here though that says this code can come up if the car was in the reduced power mode, so maybe it's just a red herring.

P0102 is an airflow sensor condition. Probable causes include 1. vacuum hose off, cracked or passage blocked - Engine mechanical timing condition. 2. Throttle body intake tube loose, cracked or off. 3. Baro (barometer)/MAP (Mass Air Flow) sensor dirty or defective. 4. VAF (Vane Air Flow) MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor dirty or defective. I checked the air filter & tubes including the one that goes to the throttle body. Didn't see anything open, cracked, or loose. There were a couple small leaves on the dirty side of the filter so I pulled them off, but they were just a couple square inches each and since the filter has deep pleats it seems unlikely they would have obstructed much flow. The filter itself looks pretty clean. I also popped off the electrical connector to what I think must be the MAF sensor (it pokes into the air stream between the filter and the throttle) and checked it for corrosion, but all the connectors inside were clean and shiny. I'm not suspecting the sensor itself because the engine runs fine now.

P1510 says (for the GM J body, which the Saturn tech told me is what the L series is) "The ECM did not receive a start signal during engine cranking". Probable causes: 1. Failed clutch switch or transmission range switch. 2. Ignition switch failure. 3. Open circuit condition. This seems mysterious because I didn't have any trouble starting it.

P1519 says for GM (non - V or R body) "Throttle actuator control module internal circuit fault. The ECM has detected an incorrect amount of pulse width modulation to operate the throttle valve motor." Probable causes: 1. Open or short circuit condition in the throttle blade motor circuit. 2. Failed throttle blade motor. 3. Binding or sticking throttle plate body.

That seems a lot more to the point than the others. The throttle was wide open, and that's not something that happens very often. Maybe it stuck momentarily, or wouldn't reach full range and so momentarily looked like a failed moter.

Interestingly, P0102 and P1519 refer to components that are very close together. Again, physical inspection showed nothing out of the ordinary and it was an intermittent problem, so I'm not sure what I should try next. I think I saw a reference to cleaning the MAF sensor elsewhere on this site. I'll also look around for instructions on cleaning the throttle itself. I'm wondering, though -- suppose I do that, how will I know it's OK? Should I just reset the codes and test-drive it? I'll certainly make sure there's no traffic around before I floor it on the highway again!

One more thing. I haven't worked on a car since pre-OBD-1 days. I'm thinking of investing in a decent scanner, though. What capabilities would I need to do a better diagnosis? I'm thinking real-time display at a minimum. Do I need bidirectional capability (for example, to run the throttle through it's full range - although I could just step on the gas, right)? Most scanners with bidirectional features ain't cheap! The Equus 3130 is pretty reasonably priced and it says it does bidirectional, but I can't tell how much capability it has. The new Auto XRay 7000 says it has "full bidirectional capability", whatever that means. It's kind of pricey for me though, even from Amazon ($399), but sounds very capable and I'd rather spend the money on a tool I can use again than on a mechanic.

Any suggestions or observations would be most welcome.

Thanks,

Ed

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Old 02-14-2009, 03:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

Hey! A fellow Saturnfans member that's long winded too! Cool!

DTC P0102 Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Circuit Low Frequency

DTC P0606 Control Module Internal Performance

DTC P1510 Throttle Control System Performance - Throttle Limitation Active

DTC P1519 Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) Module Internal Circuit

Reset the codes for now since you state that everything went back to normal. Any vacuum leak anywhere in the intake air system can result in strange symptoms as a lean condition would result. The entire intake air system must be intact and sealed in order to allow the mass air flow (MAF) sensor gauge correct airflow otherwise a leaned fuel/air mixture results with various error codes generated from wherever the lean condition emanates from. A tricky problem unless you become a student of electronic fuel injection and follow the code trail, plus read between the lines sometimes. Some codes never match symptoms.

As you become familiar with this site, search the threads about our peculiar problems related to drive-by-wire systems and maf sensor strangeness. Even severe transmission shifting putting up a P1811 code relating to pressure control solenoid issues within the transmission misses completely. MAF sensor failure causes drastic transmission problems. Its the electronic nature of EFI systems that are now creating unique symptoms that GM/Saturn never anticipated and are still puzzled. Fortunately these are few problems and shared within this site that even Saturn has grudgingly acknowledged to bring new information forth that almost no Saturn tech or engineer thought of. Call it a new paradigm shift in troubleshooting as each service center only knows so much and has to ask central intelligence (Saturn Corp.) for more info while we lowly Saturnfans are outside the box with a world wide database to share common problems on a public forum. Nice eh? The worls is getting smaller as we text message.

Unless you want the expensive Techtool II that Saturn uses, I'm of the opinion that you won't find equipment inexpensive enough for 'bidirectional' control. The master/slave stuff is exotic for all but the service shops with high overhead costs to recoup the investment on very high performance equipment. I would tend to think that most of the expense is from software and this becomes dedicated to GM, M-B, Ford, Chrysler, etc.. They're not about to release this without realizing the 'tweakers' amongst us that will turn this around for tuning purposes. Just my 2-cents.

The best investment would be your personal education to get up to speed on EFI systems and buying whatever's out there for code reading and possibly pulling more difficult wrench codes. Find and read up on the various OBD II codes. Google is excellent at this.

...
*The CPS is the heart of the entire EFI system. No cps = dead EFI system*
*There's more to a/c than just a few cans of refrigerant*
*There's more to brakes than just replacing parts*

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Old 02-14-2009, 04:40 PM   #3
ejs
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Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Hey! A fellow Saturnfans member that's long winded too! Cool!

DTC P0102 Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Circuit Low Frequency

DTC P0606 Control Module Internal Performance

DTC P1510 Throttle Control System Performance - Throttle Limitation Active

DTC P1519 Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) Module Internal Circuit

Reset the codes for now since you state that everything went back to normal. Any vacuum leak anywhere in the intake air system can result in strange symptoms as a lean condition would result. The entire intake air system must be intact and sealed in order to allow the mass air flow (MAF) sensor gauge correct airflow otherwise a leaned fuel/air mixture results with various error codes generated from wherever the lean condition emanates from.
[...]
Hi fdryer,

I appreciate the tips. You reminded me about a brief thought I had while looking under the hood. The intake manifolds seem to be two-stage affiars, with rubber boots/hoses between the sections. I noticed some dry-rot in the (very) short flexible section between the clamps. It looked superficial, but I wonder if one or more of these hoses leaks at high vacuum. That would look to the EFI system like less air is moving through the MAF than the engine would need for the RPM and load -- in other words, like, say, a broken manifold, no? I can see why the system would go into limp-home mode if that happens.

I guess I could test my theory by:
1) seeing if it happens again at full throttle & highway speed (i.e. is it even reproduceable), and if it does, then
2) duct-taping (or maybe electrical tape) around the hoses as a temporary seal.
If it happens during 1) but not after 2), that was probably it and a new set of hoses is in order.
Sound worth a try?

Now, you're trying to convince me not to buy the toy I had my heart set on. I'd like to show you what you're talking me out of, but I don't have enough posts to allow links. I guess if you want to appreciate your cruelty, you'll have to search for it.

I guess I am long-winded. Reminds me of the famous quote from A. Einstein:
"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
(Hmm, I'd better tighten this up before I post it )

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Old 02-14-2009, 05:13 PM   #4
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

LOL! I appreciate the humor!? I'm not going hunting for the magic reader/scanner/Ron Popeil vegamatic. Done that and still can't convince myself to buy one, yet. Borrowing from Tom, Dick, and Harry!? Its the American way.

Careful on the flex couplings as the clamps are 'imbecile' proof requiring adept use of either the expensive clamp tool or plain needle nose pliers to release them. The problem is the dry rot cracking and possibly allowing a vacuum leak. One member found one coupling this way that caused a lean condition error code in one of the cylinder banks. Pry at your own risk. Price the replacement couplers. Maybe rockauto.com otherwise dealer ($$) prices. Use a spray of throttle cleaner or propane gas to feed around the couplings while idling - the change in rpm will indicate the leak. I'm hoping the occasional silicone spray on these couplings will delay the dry rot - then go for the aircraft quality duct tape!? Hopefully it won't come to drastic measures.

Its a good thing we're on these L-forums as being on the S-forums could get me killed!? They like the "r&r this and that, clean and blow dry/I'm outta' here type of posts."

...
*The CPS is the heart of the entire EFI system. No cps = dead EFI system*
*There's more to a/c than just a few cans of refrigerant*
*There's more to brakes than just replacing parts*

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Old 02-15-2009, 07:35 PM   #5
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1995 SW1
Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

It's looking like an electrical problem after all. I tried spraying throttle cleaner fluid on the intake boots, but there was no change in the idle. I also checked all the vacuum hoses & fittings -- looked at them, wiggled them, even sprayed them with the fluid, but found nothing. Before that, I cleared the codes (by disconnecting the battery). Did a short drive to re-train the module, and then tried to reproduce the original problem. No clear highways to floor it on, but I found a lonng steep hill and took it up to about 6000 RPM in 2nd gear (I assume). No problem -- seemed strong all the way. Then I headed over to AutoZone, picked up the throttle cleaner fluid and did some other shopping. Back in the car, it started right up, but the Service Engine Soon light came on, and it was running roughly. Stalled soon after & wouldn't run. Bought a couple Haynes books in AutoZone, did some reading, poked around a while, & started it up again. No problem. Started testing with the fluid, and everything was fine. Then I started wiggling wires, and it cut out as soon as I hit the MAF sensor harness. Repeated a bunch of times, after separating the wires so I could get to them one at a time. Very hard to tell for sure since it doesn't always cut out, no matter what I do, but every time it did it I had just moved something near the MAF. My best guess is one of the harness wires or connector sockets is bad.

So, can I repair this, or do I need to go to the dealer for it? Are these connectors available separately? I wrote down some numbers & letters that are on it:
JPT
1 928 402
It's a 5-wire connector. Found it in a German Bosch catalog. Won't be able to post the link, so I'll fake it:
http: SLASH SLASH www DOT germanex DOT de SLASH download SLASH c1045 SLASH Bosch_SteckerSteckverbindungen.pdf

I'm pretty sure this is the "Code 1" version (there were some tiny numbers on the plug part that I didn't write down).

So, how do I get one of these, or the little sockets that go inside? And what kinds of tools are needed to work with them?

Thanks,
--Ed

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Old 02-15-2009, 07:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

Almost forgot -- of course, it coded as soon as it stalled. This time the only code was P0102, which is how I knew to look really carefully at the MAF sensor.

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Old 02-15-2009, 09:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

TROUBLEMAKER!?

DTC P0102 Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor Circuit Low Frequency

That link brought you this; http://www.germanex.de/download/c104...rbindungen.pdf

It appears to be Bosch's site for electrical connectors. Enjoy. Whether you can repair yours depends on your capability/tenacity. The trick is finding the electrical break otherwise its replacement time unless you have a spare car and can rip/tear/disassemble your maf assembly. Obviously its a one way ride so its your call. Its great that you located the weak point.

...
*The CPS is the heart of the entire EFI system. No cps = dead EFI system*
*There's more to a/c than just a few cans of refrigerant*
*There's more to brakes than just replacing parts*

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Old 03-07-2009, 10:46 PM   #8
ejs
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Default (Update) Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

So, here's an update...

I pulled the connectors at both ends (MAF sensor and ECU), and did end-to-end continuity tests. (Yes, I disconnected the battery before pulling the plug on the ECU.) No problems, even when I wiggled the wires around plenty, so my earlier experience was a false lead. Kind of -- I knew there was a loose connection, but it wasn't a bad wire. So where was it, you ask? Not so fast, grasshopper

In case you're wondering, I didn't have a pinout for those huge connectors on the ECU. I just guessed which of the two it was from the way the wires run, cleaned up around that one and pulled it off (carefully!). Then I picked one of the 5 MAF sensor pins and clipped a test lead onto it. Using the other lead I probed the ECU contacts with my tester on beep, until I found the matching one. I used a thin gold-plated pin that fit pretty well into the little socket (I have some leftover parts from my electronics days). With that stuck in the matching socket, I wiggled the wire near the MAF sensor until I was convinced it was good. Repeated for all 5, but I didn't find a bad one. Huh? Something strange is going on.

At this point I decided to clean the sensor. Pulled it off, and guess what I found? One of the hoses wasn't on right!!!! It was folded under where you can't see from the top. I have to assume the #$%@#$ guy who put my car back together a month ago when the thermostat was replaced (or a year or so back when the air filter was replaced) did it wrong and I had an air leak. Can't have been a big one because only a little of the hose didn't make it around the fitting, but there were traces of dirt around that spot so I know some air was getting in. Well, I cleaned up the sensor carefully, put the hose back on right (not so easy), and... SAME OLD ****.

OK, you've paid your dues, so I'll cut to the chase. I bought an OBC II scanner with live data display / graph / record, and watched the MAF reading while I ran the throttle up and down. It hardly changed. Put the scanner on record and took a ride around the block, using plenty of throttle. Hardly any change. Now I'm convinced the problem is the sensor, so why was it acting like it had a loose connection? The answer is here (still no URLs yet for me, sorry, I need a few more posts):

www DOT wellsmfgcorp DOT com SLASH pdf SLASH Counterpoint3_2 DOT pdf
and here:
www DOT auto-repair-help DOT com SLASH automotive_videos SLASH mass_air_flow_sensors DOT php
Watch the #1 video on the auto-repair-help link for a great demonstration.

Basically, one failure mode for MAF sensors, and especially for MAF sensors with integral electronics modules, is loose internal connections. I remembered what happened earlier -- when I wiggled the wires, the car stalled and the ECU coded, so I tried the tap test they suggested. Only difference is that I did it in the car, using the scanner so I didn't need to get their special tester. I put the scanner on live display with the engine running, and tapped the sensor with a small tool. Engine stalled! No need to even look at the scanner (which had nothing to say anyway, with the engine stopped). So in the end it wasn't the wires after all. It was indeed the sensor, as the AutoZone code reader had indicated. But at least I know that now, and I know why I had trouble before when I wiggled the wires. I'm going to order one from rockauto.com or theautopartsshop.com.

Now, if my wife reads this she'll notice I didn't really have to go out and spend $$$$$ on a nice scanner (it was more than a new sensor, by at least 2X) to solve this problem. But how long would it have taken? Hmm?

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Old 03-09-2009, 06:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

The Bosch MAF in these cars seem to have a very short life. Last week I had the dreaded P1811(wrench light) code followed by the harsh shifts. After having everything reset at a GM dealer, three days later the SES light came on and I had a P1510. The GM dealer wanted to replace the whole throttle body. I bought a reman MAF from AutoZOne (about a $110), took it back to the dealer to have all the codes cleared (AZ can not reset wrench codes). Now a week later, all is good and my throttle response is not so lazy/jumpy!! If you are having weird codes and driveability issues, replace the MAF.

...
"I tip my hat to the man who drives an Alfa Romeo" - Henry Ford

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Old 03-09-2009, 11:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: (Update) Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P

Quote:
Originally Posted by ejs View Post
So, here's an update...

I pulled the connectors at both ends (MAF sensor and ECU), and did end-to-end continuity tests. (Yes, I disconnected the battery before pulling the plug on the ECU.) No problems, even when I wiggled the wires around plenty, so my earlier experience was a false lead. Kind of -- I knew there was a loose connection, but it wasn't a bad wire. So where was it, you ask? Not so fast, grasshopper

In case you're wondering, I didn't have a pinout for those huge connectors on the ECU. I just guessed which of the two it was from the way the wires run, cleaned up around that one and pulled it off (carefully!). Then I picked one of the 5 MAF sensor pins and clipped a test lead onto it. Using the other lead I probed the ECU contacts with my tester on beep, until I found the matching one. I used a thin gold-plated pin that fit pretty well into the little socket (I have some leftover parts from my electronics days). With that stuck in the matching socket, I wiggled the wire near the MAF sensor until I was convinced it was good. Repeated for all 5, but I didn't find a bad one. Huh? Something strange is going on.

At this point I decided to clean the sensor. Pulled it off, and guess what I found? One of the hoses wasn't on right!!!! It was folded under where you can't see from the top. I have to assume the #$%@#$ guy who put my car back together a month ago when the thermostat was replaced (or a year or so back when the air filter was replaced) did it wrong and I had an air leak. Can't have been a big one because only a little of the hose didn't make it around the fitting, but there were traces of dirt around that spot so I know some air was getting in. Well, I cleaned up the sensor carefully, put the hose back on right (not so easy), and... SAME OLD ****.

OK, you've paid your dues, so I'll cut to the chase. I bought an OBC II scanner with live data display / graph / record, and watched the MAF reading while I ran the throttle up and down. It hardly changed. Put the scanner on record and took a ride around the block, using plenty of throttle. Hardly any change. Now I'm convinced the problem is the sensor, so why was it acting like it had a loose connection? The answer is here (still no URLs yet for me, sorry, I need a few more posts):

www DOT wellsmfgcorp DOT com SLASH pdf SLASH Counterpoint3_2 DOT pdf
and here:
www DOT auto-repair-help DOT com SLASH automotive_videos SLASH mass_air_flow_sensors DOT php
Watch the #1 video on the auto-repair-help link for a great demonstration.

Basically, one failure mode for MAF sensors, and especially for MAF sensors with integral electronics modules, is loose internal connections. I remembered what happened earlier -- when I wiggled the wires, the car stalled and the ECU coded, so I tried the tap test they suggested. Only difference is that I did it in the car, using the scanner so I didn't need to get their special tester. I put the scanner on live display with the engine running, and tapped the sensor with a small tool. Engine stalled! No need to even look at the scanner (which had nothing to say anyway, with the engine stopped). So in the end it wasn't the wires after all. It was indeed the sensor, as the AutoZone code reader had indicated. But at least I know that now, and I know why I had trouble before when I wiggled the wires. I'm going to order one from rockauto.com or theautopartsshop.com.

Now, if my wife reads this she'll notice I didn't really have to go out and spend $$$$$ on a nice scanner (it was more than a new sensor, by at least 2X) to solve this problem. But how long would it have taken? Hmm?
GM had the same problem with the MAF sensors in the mid 80's. My personal opinion is that the MAF is not tightly mounted to the air box and the plastic intake hose transmits more vibration to the sensor(this along with a poorly made sensor). My 1996 Caprice gets beat on regularly and has the original in it and no issues. It is mounted away from the engine and secured to the airbox. Just my humble opinion, but a very educated one.

...
OMG this car is easy to work on!

2000 LW2
1998 Intrigue
1996 Caprice
1994 88
1986 GLHS

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Old 03-10-2009, 09:51 PM   #11
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2000 L-Series 2.2L Sedan
2000 L-Series 2.2L Wagon
Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

els you seem to have some electronics skills and the morbid curiosity that drive some of us to tear our cars apart. Somone on the Saab 9-5 forums I follow found out why the throttle bodies were failing by pulling off the cover and finding the fried wires. Repair and re-insulate the wires and the TB is fixed like magic. How about AFTER you purchase and install the new MAF you dissect the old failed one and see if you can find the problem. There may be a relatively simple fix for this. You have the ball...

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Old 03-11-2009, 04:38 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 LW300 lost power at full throttle. Codes P0102, P0606, P1510, P1519

Quote:
Originally Posted by born again View Post
els you seem to have some electronics skills and the morbid curiosity that drive some of us to tear our cars apart. Somone on the Saab 9-5 forums I follow found out why the throttle bodies were failing by pulling off the cover and finding the fried wires. Repair and re-insulate the wires and the TB is fixed like magic. How about AFTER you purchase and install the new MAF you dissect the old failed one and see if you can find the problem. There may be a relatively simple fix for this. You have the ball...
You must have read my mind.

The MAF sensor arrived today, & I'm planning to swap it tomorrow. No idea when I'll get to the dissection -- depends on how hard it is to do it w/o destroying the thing. But it's on my list. I do have a couple ideas about what it could be -- there are some obvious candidates that might be feasible to fix. But don't get your hopes up, because if the problem is at/in the hybrid module that's won't be so easy. Looks like it's going to be a project just to open the housing. We'll see.

Funny thing, I drove a Saab for over 20 years. Would have bought another when the 1st one died (ok it crashed, but it was dead either way) if they hadn't gotten so dang expensive. Come to think about it, my approach to car repair & posting about it was honed years ago on the Saab list (now saabnet.com). Is that the forum you're talking about?

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