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Old 12-12-2008, 01:05 AM   #1
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Default Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Protect

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Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Protection

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From the Wall Street Journal: A frantic, last-ditch attempt to forge a relief package for the auto industry collapsed in the U.S. Senate, dealing a giant blow to the immediate hopes of the Big Three. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada suggested the $14 billion wouldn't be revisited until January.

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Old 12-12-2008, 04:05 AM   #2
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

Is Saturn really still a separate entity? So it looks like Saturn Corporation could file for bankruptcy protection alone without the rest of GM. Is that correct? I'm confused; I thought Saturn was just another division of GM now. If they file for bankruptcy protection does that mean that GM could dissolve the brand without paying Saturn retailers the estimated two billion dollars it might cost GM to end Saturn. If that is true then there is your answer as to what will happen to Saturn. GM would get to end the brand and not have to pay to do it. It’s a win-win for GM.

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Old 12-12-2008, 07:30 AM   #3
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Thumbs Down Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

We have now seen that many of our so called esteemed senators are willing to risk breaking a country to break a union. If you do a little research and check out the amount of publicly funded subsidies labeled as economic development programs that supported the location of foreign owned automobile plants in the home states of several of the biggest opponents of this loan to US based manufacturers, you'll find free market ideological hypocrisy at its finest. God bless America, because we are all going to need it in the upcoming financial crash.

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Old 12-12-2008, 07:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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We have now seen that many of our so called esteemed senators are willing to risk breaking a country to break a union. If you do a little research and check out the amount of publicly funded subsidies labeled as economic development programs that supported the location of foreign owned automobile plants in the home states of several of the biggest opponents of this loan to US based manufacturers, you'll find free market ideological hypocrisy at its finest. God bless America, because we are all going to need it in the upcoming financial crash.
What about all those union "subsidies" to the mob and politicians/pacs/political parties? No, no funny business going on there at all.

I 'spose you'd rather those "foreign owned" plants were located in Mexico rather than supplying jobs for AMERICANS?

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Old 12-12-2008, 07:48 AM   #5
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Thumbs Down Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Originally Posted by ByeByeSaturn View Post
Is Saturn really still a separate entity? So it looks like Saturn Corporation could file for bankruptcy protection alone without the rest of GM. Is that correct? I'm confused; I thought Saturn was just another division of GM now. If they file for bankruptcy protection does that mean that GM could dissolve the brand without paying Saturn retailers the estimated two billion dollars it might cost GM to end Saturn. If that is true then there is your answer as to what will happen to Saturn. GM would get to end the brand and not have to pay to do it. It’s a win-win for GM.
ByeByeSaturn ? WTF? could you choose a more inappropriate name? Charlie, I am offended by this person's tag, really, c'mon. LAME.

Charlie, with whats going on right now, I am seeing a disparaging amount of newbies suddenly signing in solely for the purpose to bash Saturn. Can something be done about these people?

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:02 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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I 'spose you'd rather those "foreign owned" plants were located in Mexico rather than supplying jobs for AMERICANS?
Please don't attribute thoughts to me that I didn't express, Ritz. I have not stated general disapproval of the internationalization of the auto industry as I see international trade as inevitable. I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of objecting to public financial support of US based manufacturers while many of the foreign manufacturers in the states of those objecting enjoyed US taxpayer provided subsidies and tax incentives. While we are at it perhaps we might also discuss the half century of US taxpayer financed subsidies of the defense of the Asian and European homelands while the governments of some of those countries historically made it extremely difficult to import US goods into their markets and otherwise financially supported their own companies. Free trade is supposed to be a two way street but it doesn't always work that way in the real world.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:07 AM   #7
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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What about all those union "subsidies" to the mob and politicians/pacs/political parties? No, no funny business going on there at all.

I 'spose you'd rather those "foreign owned" plants were located in Mexico rather than supplying jobs for AMERICANS?

Cheers,
Well, it doesn't help much when you have politicians such as Mitch McConnell in office (From Kentucky)...blatantly saying that he isn't supporting the bailout.

Let's see:

Kentucky has 2 Automotive Production Plants:

Toyota

-AND- (drum roll please)

Gee...The CORVETTE Production Plant

Last time I checked, CORVETTES were MADE BY GM!


So how is it...that a Politician from one state can say that he doesn't support the bailout, when he has a GM plant in his own state's backyard?

Seems kind of self defeating doesn't it?

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Originally Posted by John10 View Post
We have now seen that many of our so called esteemed senators are willing to risk breaking a country to break a union. If you do a little research and check out the amount of publicly funded subsidies labeled as economic development programs that supported the location of foreign owned automobile plants in the home states of several of the biggest opponents of this loan to US based manufacturers, you'll find free market ideological hypocrisy at its finest. God bless America, because we are all going to need it in the upcoming financial crash.
I have to admit...you have made some good points in some other posts where we have exchanged comments

One thing I have to question about Politicians is this...now that the bailout of the auto industry not been passed...will we see the House and Senate give themselves another pay increase?

Why can't Politicians take a pay cut as well...if they are so concerned about the future of the country and the economy..it wouldn't hurt them to take a pay cut.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Please don't attribute thoughts to me that I didn't express, Ritz. I have not stated general disapproval of the internationalization of the auto industry as I see international trade as inevitable. I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of objecting to public financial support of US based manufacturers while many of the foreign manufacturers in the states of those objecting enjoyed US taxpayer provided subsidies and tax incentives.
Give it a rest. Tax incentives are common for all industry groups when a government is trying to lure jobs into their city/state. It happens all the time for domestic companies that want to relocate as well. So kindly forgive me if I think your motives are a bit suspect. Tax incentives in the tens of millions to attract JOBS is a far cry from throwing tens or hundreds of billions at an industry that's acknowledged to be circling the drain due to self inflicted wounds.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
So how is it...that a Politician from one state can say that he doesn't support the bailout, when he has a GM plant in his own state's backyard?

Seems kind of self defeating doesn't it?
Perhaps he's just one of those rare politicians that is actually using his head rather than being led around by his collection plate.

The bailout makes no sense and is going to cost FAR more than the "small" numbers currently being bandied about in the press. And once that purse is opened the recipients are going to pry it open wider and wider. It just needs to stop.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:41 AM   #11
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Checkered Flag Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

maybe the collapse of the bailout will be good for Saturn . Hopefully GM will see the light and not give up on a good thing now !! there's allot of Saturn owners out there that don't want to see Saturn die . I would feel especially bad if I just went out two months ago before all this and bought a new Saturn ? there's got to be a way out of this without giving up on a dream . This economy will not be like it is for ever , things will change and I would like to have a Saturn dealer to bring my car to .

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
I have to admit...you have made some good points in some other posts where we have exchanged comments

One thing I have to question about Politicians is this...now that the bailout of the auto industry not been passed...will we see the House and Senate give themselves another pay increase?

Why can't Politicians take a pay cut as well...if they are so concerned about the future of the country and the economy..it wouldn't hurt them to take a pay cut.
A pay cut wouldn't hurt them at all. Their salaries are a pittance compared to what they raise from lobbyists and campaign fund raising. Cap or eliminate lobby and campaign contributions if you want the crooks to lose interest in politics.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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So kindly forgive me if I think your motives are a bit suspect.
For someone who makes at least part of his living trading with the Chinese, I don't think you want to get into a debate on anyone's personal motives.

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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For someone who makes at least part of his living trading with the Chinese, I don't think you want to get into a debate on anyone's personal motives.
Bring it on. I sell American products TO China. I bring money TO America. What exactly do you do again?

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Old 12-12-2008, 09:38 AM   #15
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

Even for those who see the only way 'forward' through bankruptcy ... the timing would rival depression-era efforts at budget-balancing in stupidity.
In :
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/bu...prod=permalink
Business Auto Bailout Appears Dead in Senate as G.O.P. Resists
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN and DAVID E. SANGER Published: December 12, 2008

Please note that both administrations are not keen on dropping the ball ...

--"“We believe that the economy is in such a weakened state right now that adding another possible loss of one million jobs is just something our economy cannot sustain at the moment,” Dana Perino, ...."
and, Pres-elect Obama,
"And while they’ve failed to move quickly enough toward these goals, at this moment of great challenge for our economy, we cannot simply stand by and watch this industry collapse. Doing so would lead to a devastating ripple effect throughout our economy.”

Clearly , the present American political dialog has a tough time incorporating more than one issue simultaneously, and now the financial debacle is 'rippling' , while the auto industry (particularly , but not solely U.S.) is weak . Continuation of routine function of the automobile market {the sort of thing regulators/governments attempt to do in recessions} requires a functional credit market, which is currently lacking. In particular , it is noted that Ceberus and its 'client' , GMAC [GM sold 51%(?) of GMAC to Ceberus to 'raise cash'], 'whines' that it needs a capital infusion before it can become a bank-holding company , necessary to qualify for participation in the TARP. Meanwhile , Ceberus engaged in rather 'extortionary' behavior , raising the ire of its bondholders as Advent Capital and Pimpco ["Last month, the company began a bond swap, offering investors preferred shares in return for their accepting lower face amounts on their bonds." (link below)] . This would be considered characteristic by unions , which have a bad taste for private equity/LBO outfits... and may promote further 'distancing' by the clean hands of our Senators.

Meanwhile , GM , (now paying steep rates additionally for very professional 'bankruptcy advisors') , while trying to design/make/sell cars , is "To help pick up the slack, G.M. announced Wednesday a test program in the Midwest under which credit unions will make $10 billion in financing available for low-cost car loans to their members " {ie, re-creating at least some sort of functional financing arm, since GMAC is 'down'} :
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/11/bu...prod=permalink
December 11, 2008 Pressing Its Investors, GMAC Says It Lacks the Capital to Be a Bank By LOUISE STORY and LESLIE WAYNE

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Old 12-12-2008, 01:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Please don't attribute thoughts to me that I didn't express, Ritz. I have not stated general disapproval of the internationalization of the auto industry as I see international trade as inevitable. I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of objecting to public financial support of US based manufacturers while many of the foreign manufacturers in the states of those objecting enjoyed US taxpayer provided subsidies and tax incentives. While we are at it perhaps we might also discuss the half century of US taxpayer financed subsidies of the defense of the Asian and European homelands while the governments of some of those countries historically made it extremely difficult to import US goods into their markets and otherwise financially supported their own companies. Free trade is supposed to be a two way street but it doesn't always work that way in the real world.

GM in Tarrytown NY got tax breaks and even many infrastucture (New bridges and roads to support the factory). improvements to keep a plant open. They shut the plant shortly after the improvements were made.

When I had an OEM fender rust after an accident I wrote to GM and Saturn. GM warrants replacxement parts for life; Saturn for 1 year. They said Saturn is (In legal terms) a seperate entity and did not give the same warranty State Farm did pay for a new hood after I advised them that my vehicle had a "Diminished value"


Saturn is the divison most likely to go as they have the fewest outlets to close. GM due to state franchise laws has to make payments to the dealers (Like they did for Olds).

Also GM was making big bucks through GMAC Mortgage and Rescap (A big sub-prime lender. When the mortgage market crash so did GMAC's conributions to the earnings. GM still has a 49% intrest and there are rumors GMAC will file for chapter 11 in January. I have a mortgage with GMAC and refinancing with another company next week. GMAC's rate is 1% more than the new bank when I inquired. NO one wants to lend them funds so they can not write new mortgages

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:42 PM   #17
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

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Bring it on.
There is nothing to bring on Ritz because I have absolutely no interest in dueling with you personally. I will not however stand for anyone questioning my own motives as a "bit suspect" when I have no direct financial stake in any of the Big 3 or membership in any union involved in autos or anything else. My involvement is simply that I believe the liquidation or other collapse of much or all the US owned auto industry will bring on even more serious problems for the American economy. I can't see the future but I believe these problems could be of the nature of something that has not been seen in this country for 75 years. At that point we all will have a vested interest in the screw up and it isn't going to be something many will enjoy. Hopefully I am wrong but I've spent a good part of the past two decades watching this country going to Hades and having ideologues of both extremes telling me what they advocate is in my best interests. It's all a crock because little if anything is really improving or going well IMO.

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rescue Bid for Detroit Collapses in Senate, GM May Put Saturn Into Bankruptcy Pro

Maybe instead of relying so heavily on the environmentally disastrous auto industry, we should re-invest in passenger rail. Instead of saving GM, bring back Pullman Standard, Budd, etc.

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