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Old 12-12-2008, 12:46 AM   #1
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Default Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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[drupal=2749]Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate[/drupal]

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Associated Press: A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts. The collapse came after bipartisan talks on the auto rescue broke down over GOP demands that the UAW union agree to steep wage cuts by 2009 to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers.

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Old 12-12-2008, 01:32 AM   #2
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

Personally, I think GM needs to go out of business. This is the free market at its best. They made poor business decisions and should cease to exist. I am annoyed to no end at the "bailouts" being dolled out by congress. I cheered when the $700 billion bailout was squashed, and cursed when it passed. I feel skeptical that congress will let GM go under, but it is the right thing to do.

I personally believe GM and Chrysler's collapse (Ford will probably still be around) will just inspire more entrepreneurship in the automotive industry. Imagine the U.S. without GM, where there are a few dozen car companies like Tesla making cars that Americans will actually buy. Where is GM's Prius? The Volt? Too little too late.

And Saturn should be dropped regardless. I for one THOROUGHLY dislike rebadged cars and will NEVER buy one. GMC should not exist, nor should Pontiac, Buick, or Saturn. Look at Toyota's business model: they essentially have Toyota and Scion.

I imagine a new GM, renamed to Chevrolet, with two brands: Chevy and Cadillac. I imagine this new company much smaller, but with excellent profits, that only makes cars that sell well. Also, this company forbids unionization, and actively threatens to move jobs to Mexico if the UAW workers protest.

UAW WORKERS SHOULD MAKE MINIMUM WAGE. They do not have any education beyond high school, and should be treated as such.

Honestly, it is the universal sense of entitlement that is causing America, and the free market, to FAIL. Things you do not deserve:

-A house regardless of income.
-A good paying job regardless of education.
-A cheap education. Loans exist, use them.
-A high school diploma. Honestly, I could write a book about how even the dumbest people can get their diploma now, and how it has dumbed down the accomplishment.
-Food. If you are able-bodied and unwilling to work, go die in a ditch.

I, quite frankly, am SICK of the bailout mentality. If the car companies fail, then they are FOOLS and they DESERVE IT.

This has turned into more broad of a rant than I intended, but I am a bit irked at the thought that someday I will have to pay for people's mistakes (which ultimately caused this mess) with my accomplishments (my tax dollars).

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:10 AM   #3
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

Im sorry, but your wrong on most of your counts, which is not a surprise because thats exactly what a number of people are trying to spin this "bailout" as.

GM did some crappy business moves yes, BUT had the market been even a iota different than it is right now we would NOT be in this mess. Worse is the fact that you have Honda, and Toyota and BMW in the SAME position right now getting government subsides not only from their home governments but from the states of the VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO VOTED AGAINST THIS BILL.

This was a union bustup and southern pride plain and simple from the glorious republicans of the south who absolutely hate northern industry and have said as much in press conferences and talking points in the media recently.

And I am sorry but the idea that having a higher degree means you should earn more money is garbage. You know what we called people with Masters and Doctorates in education circles? Idiots. Why? Because there is absolutely no guarantee in the world that having a slip of paper makes you more money, its a myth, hard work and dedication to what you do gets you money, as well as smart decisions and not subscribing to consumer greed. Do you realize how many CURRENT millionaires have barely a associates degree education right now?

Or how many people out there have no post high school education whatsoever and run 1-2 million dollar businesses?

Hell my job alone is all technical degrees. While everyone clamors for a college degree there is not ONE COLLEGE I KNOW who actually offered the type of education you actually need to do what I do. Its all self study or classes run by people after the fact. Basically we hire college grads to send them away for 5-6 thousand dollars MORE in training while not looking at people who have that training but dont have a silly degree thats almost 80% general education requirements these days.

The UAW wage was a fair one, and its one ALL americans regardless of education should have. Its one I make as a computer technician and full agree they should make. The problem is you have Reagenite scum trying to convince people (and winning) that your not good enough to earn a decent LIVING wage in this country. Minimum wage is NOT a living one. You could not make minimum wage in the US and expect to live in 85% of the country without some form of welfare. Its been purposefully kept down by the same people who voted against this bill to keep money for the rich and prevent lower and middle class from making any.

Make no mistake I am not appologizing for GMs stupidity, they have in fact made a lot of dumb moves. But I am sick and tired of people thinking it was GMs fault they are going bankrupt and that the union somehow caused it. It wasnt and they didnt.

You want to know who cause this mess. Talk to the banks who got a 700 billion dollar bailout. Their taking the money and running and not releasing operating loans that businesses need to run caused this mess. And its because the general public has NO idea how businesses who make profits need to still take out loans while operating that they are easily confused by idiot southern republicans who have their kickbacks from foreign governments to look out for and what better way to do it than to kill their conpetitors.

Make no mistake, what we have here is the start of the second great depression. I only hope you who work in private sector survive it because with the american auto industry going bankrupt, you are going to lose EVERY american industry.

We got a chain reaction going here folks now, and its only when your cooking rocks for your kids to eat when your going to realize how STUPID your comment here was and how dumb you are despite all that education you have to not understand HOW things work in industry.

And lastly before you try to make the claim that GM never made a profit recently I am going to point out a little known fact to you. A loss is a profit. Just because a company reports a loss, it in NO WAY means they actually didnt make more money than they spent. It almost always means they didnt make AS MUCH money as last year. This is how GM has been operating lately, they are not making nearly as much money as they have before, but they are still making money. But the fact that they can not get operating loans right now means any profits they currently have, have been being used for operating costs.

THIS is why GM is going bankrupt. They have to currently spend their profits to operate.

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

I gues the goverment has some genius plan to help out the millions who will be out of work. I'm ashamed of the morons that represent this country. Leave it to the hillbilly republirats to bring in their dislike for unions into something that is unrelated. Starting wages for UAW workers is $14 an hour, while the honda plant in Indiana started thier employees at a little over $18. So where do they get that they still need to cut more in labor to be competitve? Cut more to the point where they are uncompetitive? I''m sure that's what they want. The goverment can bailout banks that were doing well, but when it comes to helping an American idustry that employs millions, they get sold out. What a pathetic governmental system we have.



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UAW WORKERS SHOULD MAKE MINIMUM WAGE. They do not have any education beyond high school, and should be treated as such.
Where do you get this load of crap from? So people who are engineers and have other skilled trades are uneducated? There's more people who have college degrees than you think who work in auto plants. I would love to see you work in any auto plant for one week, since I know that you've never had any expeirnce in that area in your life. Then let's see what you think.


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This has turned into more broad of a rant than I intended, but I am a bit irked at the thought that someday I will have to pay for people's mistakes (which ultimately caused this mess) with my accomplishments (my tax dollars).
You'll be too busy paying for the war. Does it hoesntly even matter? It' s not like this country is ever going to be out of debt.

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Old 12-12-2008, 03:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

Regarding the commentary by Strongboy 2005- I strongly disagree with your comments. If you were to go back and study history the UAW was responsible for helping workers obtain an honest deal from their employer.In the year 1937 Henry Ford hired goons to smash the skulls of auto workers who wanted to organize. Both the UAW and GM have made some dumb moves over the years. What the Republican Senators who opposed the bridge loan did was to basically screw the workers. They are and have been anti-union. Their respective state governments gave large tax breaks to lure the foreign car companies to set up plants. That is never mentioned. What will happen during a bankruptcy is we all get the shaft-the workers, the suppliers, the car owners the dealers etc. This was not a bail out-it was a bridge loan. What is truly sad is that GM was finally getting its act together when the credit crunch took hold. My dealer told me that business was dead and what has been happening is having a negative impact .I know some good people who are going to hurt if GM/Saturn closes shop. Why should these people pay for the political games of a few senators? When election time comes they troop to the industrial Mid West telling people that they have their interests at heart.I did not here them complain when it came to light that AIG executives were using the "bail-out' money to go on expensive executive retreats.
BTW- the UAW enabled the auto workers to have a middle class life that became a large part of the US economy over the years. Many people who work hard could not either finish high school or afford college . In the thirties working on an assembly line putting together cars was a dirty and dangerous job. It has gotten better and safer over the years due in part to the UAW. Do you think that w/o union representation working in an auto plant would have been made safer ? Do you think that you would have survived working at one of the auto plants for example working in the paint booth before they were made safer? I remember watching the news some time back and seeing how Delphi workers ended with their pay cut in half. How would you like it if your pay was suddenly cut in half?
It has been said that life is not fair but to see people who go to work every day facing unemployment because of politics makes me sick to my stomach. An auto worker does not make $ 73.00 per hour. I think that the figure is actually closer to what an non union auto worker makes. In fact if I remember correctly I heard that a newly hired auto worker makes adjusted for inflation what his or her grandfather made back in 1949! It never ceases to amaze me how the average Joe or Jane gets the shaft and all the big shots tell them its for their own good. I hope that this bunch of anti-union anti factory blue collar worker senators are proud of what they have accomplished. Why is it that the banks never received the same examination? I would not be surprised if the executives at GM were making calls to China looking for a partner. Lets see what happens if GM picks up a Chinese partner for an infusion of capital. If I were involved at the top in GM the moment the news came through that this legislation was dead I would be on the phone to China. If that happens I want to see what those political gas bags who are so smug and self righteous will have to say.

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Old 12-12-2008, 06:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/11/news...ion=2008121122

Well it's not over yet, they could still get a piece of the 700B Bailout. Looks like Bush's final act as President may be to save Detroit, at least for the time being.

Why they didn't just do this in the first place is beyond me.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Things you do not deserve:
-A cheap education. Loans exist, use them.
Uhm... Are you suggesting people get loans without income ? That contradicts everything you just said in your misguided psychobabble.

What you are saying is that you shouldn't have a high paying job without education. Not sure I agree with that as a general rule, but lets set that aside. You are suggesting that someone born to poor parents who have no credit to back your student loans then you should get no education. By your logic you would be then doomed to life of no high income, and therefore no house and no healthcare. Brilliant.

No wonder China and India produce more skilled workers every year with their FREE education than we do. It is because of people like you.

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Old 12-12-2008, 10:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

After enormous losses in 2006 and 2008 I see the Republicans have yet to learn their little stunts do nothing to help their cause. Unfortunately it's the folks on Main Street who have to pay.

Meanwhile, AIG who already got ~150 billion just asked for another 10 billion yesterday. These are the same people who went to a resort, then hunting trip, then another resort (this time they tried to keep it secret) and now unable to pay themselves bonuses pay out "retention payments" as high as 4 million. Where's the outrage there?

Before anyone else gets sucked into the same old tired (and wrong) talking points about the Big Three CNN had a good piece

The Japanese and European car makes are all getting help themselves, not to mention their countries all have universal health care which saves them a fortune. Even here they don't have near the same amount of retirees on board and they offer minimal insurance. Guess who pays when the guy with crappy insurance ends up in the ER? The American taxpayer. Or when it doesn't cover a catastrophic illness he can't afford and goes bankrupt over? You do, with higher interest on your loans. And if he dies? Society does, for not taking care of its own people who needed help.

Plus, the UAW workers who have been on-board longer make more. The more they make the more they turn around and pour right back into the economy. It's in our best economic interest to keep the middle class afloat, they are the biggest spenders.

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Old 12-12-2008, 01:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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UAW WORKERS SHOULD MAKE MINIMUM WAGE. They do not have any education beyond high school, and should be treated as such.
A manufacturing job is not some short term gig for high school or college students or people looking for a little supplemental income. It is a full time job, and people need to be able to afford to live and support a family!

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Old 12-12-2008, 02:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

Manufacturing is a a bottom tier career, just like McDonalds. Why should they be entitled to anymore than the equally qualified and skilled workers at Wal-Mart or McDs?

This is the end of the UAW, GM is going to file C11 and oust the UAW in with more force than would have been used under this bailout, then they will be bailed out regardless. The UAW has shot themselves in the foot. If you're an auto factory worker... chances are you're getting laid off as an X-Mas present. Be prepared.

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Old 12-12-2008, 03:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Manufacturing is a a bottom tier career, just like McDonalds. Why should they be entitled to anymore than the equally qualified and skilled workers at Wal-Mart or McDs?
I am sorry, but if that is the skill level of non-UAW employees than I am going to avoid buying non-union cars.

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Old 12-12-2008, 03:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Manufacturing is a a bottom tier career, just like McDonalds. Why should they be entitled to anymore than the equally qualified and skilled workers at Wal-Mart or McDs?

This is the end of the UAW, GM is going to file C11 and oust the UAW in with more force than would have been used under this bailout, then they will be bailed out regardless. The UAW has shot themselves in the foot. If you're an auto factory worker... chances are you're getting laid off as an X-Mas present. Be prepared.
Manufacturing can be a demanding job, working in a hot, noisy workplace at a rhythm imposed by the factory that you have to follow absolutely. You're forced to take breaks only at certain times. You have to work besides noisy machines that can rip your arm off in the flash of an eye, to operate machinery that vibrates uncomfortably and to use chemical products that have detrimental effects to people exposed to them. I haven't worked in factories, but I have worked in a warehouse, and I have worked in offices. Work in a warehouse is typically more tiring, more constant and less rewarding than in an office, and we had AC, something workers in the manufacturing sector do not have and their jobs are also much more dangerous. Many of them will have health problems from breathing the tainted air of their factories, from expositions to noise and vibration and to excessive physical efforts, so that their lives will be shortened and their old years will be burdened with many daily health problems. These people work hard for their money and they deserve every penny of it, if not more.

By comparison, many of the so-called "skilled" and educated workers that make 6 figures have relatively relaxing jobs, and many also contribute basically nothing to society (lawyers, those dumb**s investors who caused this crisis with their speculation, etc...), unlike workers in the manufacturing sector whose work sustain us in a very real and direct way.

I'm not even talking about how their salaries sustain the "service economy" professionals who have so much fun looking down at them. They are the reason the middle class is preponderant in western societies, lower their wages down to poverty levels and you will have an economic crisis compared to which this one will be a joke.

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Old 12-12-2008, 03:17 PM   #13
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

I've worked in warehouses too, I've worked in offices too. I don't see how it being "loud and physical" entitles them to make more money than a teacher. Get real, wages are based on knowledge, skill, and competency. If you're a ****ty lawyer, nobody will hire you. If you have no knowledge or skills, you make a crappy living. That's how life goes. Saying "oh well we want manufacturing families to be able to afford houses and this and that" is ridiculous. There is no entitlement, you are no entitled to anything at birth, you must make it yourself and with those around you. If you don't take the necessary steps, no, you won't live in a nice house, you'll rent a trailer. That's how life goes.

These entitlement issues are what have gotten us here. We opened the floodgate to people who realistically can't afford to own homes, and should not own homes. And now eeeeveryone feels like owning a house is their right. This is not how things really are.

UAW workers are no more skilled than their non-union counterparts. In fact, if one were to compare the sheep opinion of union made cars to non-union made cars one could make the argument that UAW workers suck compared to non-unions, but that's neither here nor there.

You know what's great about this bailout failure? Both sides can still bame each other. The media reports it as "REPUBLICANS KILL BAILOUT AND ECONOMY" with a tiny little sentence saying "GOP members did not support it because the UAW refused to necessary concessions". That's American politics at its most American right there, all smoke and mirrors.

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Old 12-12-2008, 03:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Many of them will have health problems from breathing the tainted air of their factories, from expositions to noise and vibration and to excessive physical efforts, so that their lives will be shortened and their old years will be burdened with many daily health problems. These people work hard for their money and they deserve every penny of it, if not more.

By comparison, many of the so-called "skilled" and educated workers that make 6 figures have relatively relaxing jobs, and many also contribute basically nothing to society (lawyers, those dumb**s investors who caused this crisis with their speculation, etc...), unlike workers in the manufacturing sector whose work sustain us in a very real and direct way.

I'm not even talking about how their salaries sustain the "service economy" professionals who have so much fun looking down at them. They are the reason the middle class is preponderant in western societies, lower their wages down to poverty levels and you will have an economic crisis compared to which this one will be a joke.
Well said, I agree!

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Old 12-12-2008, 04:46 PM   #15
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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I've worked in warehouses too, I've worked in offices too. I don't see how it being "loud and physical" entitles them to make more money than a teacher. Get real, wages are based on knowledge, skill, and competency. If you're a ****ty lawyer, nobody will hire you. If you have no knowledge or skills, you make a crappy living. That's how life goes. Saying "oh well we want manufacturing families to be able to afford houses and this and that" is ridiculous. There is no entitlement, you are no entitled to anything at birth, you must make it yourself and with those around you. If you don't take the necessary steps, no, you won't live in a nice house, you'll rent a trailer. That's how life goes.

These entitlement issues are what have gotten us here. We opened the floodgate to people who realistically can't afford to own homes, and should not own homes. And now eeeeveryone feels like owning a house is their right. This is not how things really are.

UAW workers are no more skilled than their non-union counterparts. In fact, if one were to compare the sheep opinion of union made cars to non-union made cars one could make the argument that UAW workers suck compared to non-unions, but that's neither here nor there.

You know what's great about this bailout failure? Both sides can still bame each other. The media reports it as "REPUBLICANS KILL BAILOUT AND ECONOMY" with a tiny little sentence saying "GOP members did not support it because the UAW refused to necessary concessions". That's American politics at its most American right there, all smoke and mirrors.
I bet you are someone who can compare favorably on "knowledge" and marketable "skills", right? As it happens, so do I, I've got a civil engineering diploma and engineers are very sought at this moment. Thing is, I don't believe the only determination of wages should be what education you've got, or "respectable" skills. I think jobs that are physically demanding and often detrimental to people's health should be compensated more too. Jobs that are more productive for society also should (and when I pointed my finger at lawyers, I didn't mean only bad ones, I meant the whole bunch of 'em). There are multiple factors and I don't begrudge people who earn about what I earn or more without a formal education simply because of that, I recgonize their worth and respect them.

Unions allow workers who are typically looked down upon to demand that they be rewarded relatively to the wealth they help create. I'd tend to argue that it is often non-unionized workers who are actually paid below what they ideally should as they don't have the sufficient leverage to make demands to have a fair share of what they create. The one element of the fxation of wage that strict "supply and demand" proponents forget is the dynamic of power. The employer that already has a running company and which marginal cost of not hiring an employee is slim compared to his actual revenues can hold out much longer in negotiations over wages than the potential employee whose whole livelihood is basically inexistant if he doesn't get a job. One is in a much better position to refuse to sign the contract than the other, which contributes to low wages for employees. An union on the other hand evens the score, as an employer who refuses to sign a new contract over increased wages can see his income disappear because of it, a consequence his employees also have. In this situation, both are on a much more level playing field as the consequences of refusal are the same, as are the consequences of prolonging the conflict long enough.

As to the fault of the end of the bail-out, the unions already had made a lot of concessions that are supposed to begin to take effect next year. We don't even know if those concessions will be enough and union-breaking Republican senators want to extract even more concessions out of them. That's not a fair demand at all, it's only a partisan way to try to hurt unions due to dogmatic objection to their very existence. It's nothing short of blackmail, blackmail done without caring for what it may do to American citizens.

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Old 12-12-2008, 08:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Manufacturing is a a bottom tier career, just like McDonalds. Why should they be entitled to anymore than the equally qualified and skilled workers at Wal-Mart or McDs?
Big talk from someone who have never worked a day in an auto manufacturing job. I bet you wouldn't last until the first break. It's ass busting work, not the perception that every seems to think such as playing cards most of the time or putting in one screw the entier time. If you ever get a chance to tour an auto manufacturing plant, I suggest you do so. Maybe then you would see what it's actually like.

By the way, there's a lot of people who have college degree and work in US automaker plants. I know many personally.

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Old 12-13-2008, 03:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Big talk from someone who have never worked a day in an auto manufacturing job. I bet you wouldn't last until the first break. It's ass busting work, not the perception that every seems to think such as playing cards most of the time or putting in one screw the entier time. If you ever get a chance to tour an auto manufacturing plant, I suggest you do so. Maybe then you would see what it's actually like.

By the way, there's a lot of people who have college degree and work in US automaker plants. I know many personally.
agreed just like there are many people with college degrees who work other hard jobs.

Like I said before just having a degree doesnt mean crap. And just because you work a tough dirty job doesnt in ANY way mean your a high school dropout.

If I was not working IT I would certainly be working for the postal service, the first job I did that I enjoyed, 65 pound mailbags and all. And I could have even seen myself working for GM had they not killed Linden around when I left college.

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Old 12-17-2008, 04:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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GM did some crappy business moves yes, BUT had the market been even a iota different than it is right now we would NOT be in this mess. Worse is the fact that you have Honda, and Toyota and BMW in the SAME position right now getting government subsides not only from their home governments but from the states of the VERY SAME PEOPLE WHO VOTED AGAINST THIS BILL.
GM has been failing for years! Where have you been? I mean, do you honestly believe this has anything to do with the "credit crisis"? The customers at Toyota and Honda would be running into the same credit barriers, so while it may be a decent excuse for decreased consumer spending as a whole, it does not explain why people aren't buying GM products.

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This was a union bustup and southern pride plain and simple from the glorious republicans of the south who absolutely hate northern industry
I won't lie, I will be glad to see the UAW disintegrate. And it will. Unions are excuses to be paid more than you should rightfully be paid. This is a GLOBALIZED ECONOMY, we cannot pay out workers $69 an hour wages and benefits when Toyota and Honda pay much less.

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And I am sorry but the idea that having a higher degree means you should earn more money is garbage. You know what we called people with Masters and Doctorates in education circles? Idiots. Why? Because there is absolutely no guarantee in the world that having a slip of paper makes you more money, its a myth, hard work and dedication to what you do gets you money, as well as smart decisions and not subscribing to consumer greed.
First of all, if you read my rant about entitlements then you will notice that I agree with you - NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO HAVE A GOOD JOB. "Entitled" in this context means, "the government will provide one for you if you cannot get one". Entitlements are something granted to an individual by the government. For example, I feel entitled to having clean tap water.

Apparently, you believe getting an education is about getting a "slip of paper". That is complete and utter BS. All those years working towards a doctorate is hard work and dedication.

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Hell my job alone is all technical degrees. While everyone clamors for a college degree there is not ONE COLLEGE I KNOW who actually offered the type of education you actually need to do what I do. Its all self study or classes run by people after the fact. Basically we hire college grads to send them away for 5-6 thousand dollars MORE in training while not looking at people who have that training but dont have a silly degree thats almost 80% general education requirements these days.
Never did I say that all jobs require a college degree. However, I disagree with your 80% general education statement. Except for liberal arts majors, a degree program is maybe 40% general education.

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The UAW wage was a fair one, and its one ALL americans regardless of education should have. Its one I make as a computer technician and full agree they should make. The problem is you have Reagenite scum trying to convince people (and winning) that your not good enough to earn a decent LIVING wage in this country. Minimum wage is NOT a living one. You could not make minimum wage in the US and expect to live in 85% of the country without some form of welfare. Its been purposefully kept down by the same people who voted against this bill to keep money for the rich and prevent lower and middle class from making any.
And here is where you are DEAD WRONG. The UAW wage was NOT fair, it was inflated above levels that the FREE MARKET would allow. NO ONE should "expect" a fair wage. Instead, self-sufficiency and ingenuity should win the day. Job doesn't pay well enough? Get a new one. Don't like making minimum wage? Get a new job or go back to school (technical school, college, whatever). If an employer can hire workers for less somewhere else, then they should be able to. Beware when others do the same job you do for much less pay.

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Make no mistake I am not appologizing for GMs stupidity, they have in fact made a lot of dumb moves. But I am sick and tired of people thinking it was GMs fault they are going bankrupt and that the union somehow caused it. It wasnt and they didnt.
You think that all these years of these guys making over $100,000 a year in wages and benefits for a job a McDonalds clerk could do hasn't been a drain on the company? The most foolish thing GM ever did was to let the UAW get a foothold.

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You want to know who cause this mess. Talk to the banks who got a 700 billion dollar bailout. Their taking the money and running and not releasing operating loans that businesses need to run caused this mess. And its because the general public has NO idea how businesses who make profits need to still take out loans while operating that they are easily confused by idiot southern republicans who have their kickbacks from foreign governments to look out for and what better way to do it than to kill their conpetitors.
I am thoroughly pissed about the $700 billion, but that does not mean that I have folded. "Two wrongs don't make a right". Just because the government is being stupid on the financial front doesn't mean they have to send good money after bad by giving in to the Big Three's demands.

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We got a chain reaction going here folks now, and its only when your cooking rocks for your kids to eat when your going to realize how STUPID your comment here was and how dumb you are despite all that education you have to not understand HOW things work in industry.
I have made sure that won't happen to me. I predict that the dollar will probably collapse due to the overburdening national debt, so I have gold. Remember, all this bailout money you seem to enjoy just inflates the currency. Gloom and doom claims are not going to save America's failing auto industry. That industry is destined to fail. Americans got the shaft from the Big Three in the 80's and 90's and haven't forgiven them for it. It doesn't matter if they make quality cars now, because the foreign brands have become more trusted.

It is really sad, although not surprising, that you think massive government spending, debt, and inflation are the answer to this so-called "second great depression". I bet you think the New Deal pulled us out of the first one, don't you? It doesn't matter. These auto companies need at least $150 billion to remain viable in the coming years, according to some analysts. The $15 billion would just be wasted.

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And lastly before you try to make the claim that GM never made a profit recently I am going to point out a little known fact to you. A loss is a profit. Just because a company reports a loss, it in NO WAY means they actually didnt make more money than they spent. It almost always means they didnt make AS MUCH money as last year. This is how GM has been operating lately, they are not making nearly as much money as they have before, but they are still making money. But the fact that they can not get operating loans right now means any profits they currently have, have been being used for operating costs.

THIS is why GM is going bankrupt. They have to currently spend their profits to operate.
If they're spending their profits to operate, then they aren't profits anymore, are they?

GM's "net income" on September's income statement shows a $2.5 billion loss. As a company, their liabilities usurp their assets by a full $38 billion. GM has not had a positive net equity since they reported in December 2005.

GM has been living ON CREDIT. This means that their net income is negative, and they owe more money than the company is worth. GM has NOT been pulling in a profit, not by a long shot.

And before you call me stupid again, answer me this: how long do you think until the creditworthiness of the United States is called into question? We have been gladly borrowing trillions of dollars to fund government largess without ever questioning where, or from whom, the money will come from to pay off that debt. There is a wonderful, fair mechanism already in place for figuring out this economic mess and it is called the free market. Unions artificially inflate free market wages, the government artificially holds up "American" companies when they should fail, and we, as a society, have collectively (well, not all of us) decided that a factory worker should still be middle class in the modern world economy. Newsflash: there are people on this planet that would be GLAD to make $10/hour working a factory job. Legitimately, the more high-skilled jobs have been afforded better pay BY THE FREE MARKET.

I don't believe that college graduates "should" get paid more than a factory worker; I believe that in a "true" free market (no unions) they just will. In that sense, I believe that an auto worker making as much as a college grad is only doing so because their wages have been artificially inflated, while the college grad actually has to be good at what they do. This is not a sustainable situation in a global economy with other better run companies that pay their equally-skilled employees much less.

With or without the unions, auto factory workers will never make minimum wage. They will make a "fair" wage - if you base "fairness" on their accessibility to free market wages (ie, wages that properly reward for level of skill, dedication, and education, not on ones ability to bully through picket lines).

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Old 12-17-2008, 05:19 PM   #19
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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Thing is, I don't believe the only determination of wages should be what education you've got, or "respectable" skills. I think jobs that are physically demanding and often detrimental to people's health should be compensated more too. Jobs that are more productive for society also should (and when I pointed my finger at lawyers, I didn't mean only bad ones, I meant the whole bunch of 'em). There are multiple factors and I don't begrudge people who earn about what I earn or more without a formal education simply because of that, I recgonize their worth and respect them.
But, who cares what you think? In the FREE MARKET there is no "should". Have an important, sought-after skill? Employers, by default, will pay well for that skill. We, as a society, do not collectively decide how much an individual person can make. I have MUCH more respect for a good lawyer who makes $100,000 a year than the unionized employee that is paid $50,000 out of high school for a job that others would gladly do for much less.

Here is the beauty of the free market: it mainly operates at the level of the individual. If you believe thoroughly in your heart that you deserve NOTHING, and that to be successful means to roll with the punches and adapt, then you have the right attitude. I do not feel sorry one bit for able-bodied, sane individuals who complain about low pay when higher paying jobs exist. If you don't like what you do, then do something else. For the most part, people are too lazy and/or ignorant to seek out a job that will pay them what they think they are worth.

It is when people believe they "should" have something that the free market begins to fail. You do not deserve a good wage or a house. You only "deserve" what you are actually WORTH, in other words, what you have made yourself worth.

Now, let's try a thought experiment. Let's say I am a factory worker but I am a very intelligent and able individual. Recognizing the high relative pay for not much education, I jump at the opportunity to take a good paying job with benefits right out of high school. Now, let's assume the unions do not exist. The "evil" car companies now cut my wages in half, and cut all my benefits. Sad, right? No, not really. I shrug it off and start hitting the books. So does the rest of the factory.

Now, here is the real test on whether or not I was being overpaid. If GM can find people here in the United States that will do the same job I did at half the pay, I did not rightfully deserve that pay. This is not a value judgment or my opinion, it is a statement of free market fact. On the other hand, if GM has trouble finding employees at the new wage, they will raise wages to find the workers. An equilibrium is reached.

Unions artificially inflate employee wages. What they don't realize is that they are just ensuring the businesses ultimate failure. Why? If the competitors are not unionized, they are able to reach the equilibrium. The money saved on their workforce allows them to make better cars at the same price, or similar-quality cars at a lower price. Either way, the non-unionized companies are able to sell cars at a profit and will eventually take the majority of the market share. The unionized company eventually fails.

So, what unions "work"? Unions against the government work, as do "universal" unions. If the UAW included EVERY AUTO WORKER IN THE WORLD, then they would have ground to stand on. As it is, a union that artificially inflates wages of a select few companies cannot exist in a global economy.

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Old 12-17-2008, 05:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Breaking News: Auto Industry Bailout Plan Dies in the Senate

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It is when people believe they "should" have something that the free market begins to fail.
I've seen the most shameless sense of entitlement from CEO's and other egotistical execs.

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Now, let's try a thought experiment. Let's say I am a factory worker but I am a very intelligent and able individual. Recognizing the high relative pay for not much education, I jump at the opportunity to take a good paying job with benefits right out of high school. Now, let's assume the unions do not exist. The "evil" car companies now cut my wages in half, and cut all my benefits. Sad, right? No, not really. I shrug it off and start hitting the books. So does the rest of the factory.
You shrug it off, and meanwhile you can't feed your kids, pay their college tuition, your house is foreclosed, and God help you if you or your kids have any medical conditions! No big deal...

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