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Old 12-07-2008, 09:05 PM   #1
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Default GM Just Doesn't Get It

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GM Just Doesn't Get It

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Michael Block from the Orlando Auto Examiner: GM wants to get rid of Saturn. Saturn has the most unique, fresh, young and hip automobiles in all of GM-land. The Aura was named North American Car of the Year in 2007. The Astra is (finally!) a bonafide European GM model in the US.

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Old 12-07-2008, 09:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

most unique. Not even close, with the exception of the Vue.
You can make a claim for the Sky, but the Soltice is basically the same car.

No one really knows anything about Opel, unless you have been in the military or been around for awhile.

Had the Astra been a rebaged BMW, Audi, VW, or Mercedes, then people would be able to identify with this car. This is not taking anything from Opel. Most people just dont no anything about them. Holden is the same for Pontiac.

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Old 12-08-2008, 01:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

It pains me to read that they boneheads at the GM brass want to hang onto the lifeless, boring brands of Buick and GMC, and make Pontiac "just a niche brand", and possibly kill off or try to sell Saturn (which is code for let the bank take it, and it's collateralized debt - Spring Hill plant) back (repo!)...

Here's my suggestion to GM (as if anyone's listening)...

Kill GMC, they're just gussied up Chevy's anyway. Add the "Denali" class lineup to the top of the Chevy trucks and stop trying to market Chevy as the hayseed, redneck brand with country singers. Ugh. Seriously, and I'm from Cowtown!

Kill Buick IN THE US. Keep the name in China, it sells great there. We Americans have no use for it, aside from the AARP crowd. The only reason Buick - a 3 model brand, has any sales is the sheer number of BPG dealers across the states.

Part out Pontiac and let the "excitement" division of plastic body cladding panels and flaming chickens finally rest in peace, as it should have 5 years ago before we were subjected to 6 more years of the Bland-Am...

Give the Solstice platform to Chevy, and another to Caddy. Unique bodies and trim levels on each. The Chevy is the low-end to match the current Solstice (starts off cheaper, with less content, higher volume than the Sky). Caddy's version is like the XLR is to the 'Vette... same platform, new skin to match the Caddy look, nicer features. Think BMW Z4.

Give the Holden, er, Pontiac G8 to Saturn. This is in line with the "Saturn as import division".

Keep delivering the great European Opel/Vauxhall designs to Saturn. Keep it strong as the import-fighter brand, and for the love of doG, market it properly for once!

By killing the HUGE BPG dealer network, you ditch a LOT of dead weight and useless brands. Give them the option of becoming either a Chevy dealership, or a combination Chevy/Caddy/Saturn dealership. People always wonder why Saturn sells so many fewer cars, it's the dealership network, stupid! Your average buyer isn't going to drive more than 30 miles to buy a car, because they know they'll have to drive 2x that far every time they need to get it serviced! I can't even count how many times on this board alone I've read "My nearest Saturn dealer is over 50 miles away..."

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Old 12-08-2008, 03:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

sometimes i think GM wants to fail on purpose. Their redundancy and lack of clear marketing strategy is immense and pathetic. They are bloated and clueless.

Take their full size SUV/Pickups... You have have the Chevy Tahoe and Suburban, essentially the GMC Yukon and Yukon XL, respectively, then you have GMC Denali Yukon, which is a fancy Yukon, but not quite as fancy as the Cadillac Escalade....

Seriously its ridiculous.

GMC is worthless aside from its heavy duty/commercial line... although ford and dodge manage just fine without a commercial-specific brand.

Pontiac, GM's performance line has been churning out boring crap for over a decade and it too has lost brand credibility.

Now look at Toyota, who couldnt compete with Honda or Nissan for the youth import demographic, so they created Scion, and marketed it very well.

mmm cant wait to head on over to my Chevy/Cadillac/Hummer/Buick/Saturn/GMC/Pontiac/Saab dealership.

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Old 12-08-2008, 08:02 AM   #5
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

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Originally Posted by tenn734 View Post
sometimes i think GM wants to fail on purpose. Their redundancy and lack of clear marketing strategy is immense and pathetic. They are bloated and clueless.

Take their full size SUV/Pickups... You have have the Chevy Tahoe and Suburban, essentially the GMC Yukon and Yukon XL, respectively, then you have GMC Denali Yukon, which is a fancy Yukon, but not quite as fancy as the Cadillac Escalade....

Seriously its ridiculous.

GMC is worthless aside from its heavy duty/commercial line... although ford and dodge manage just fine without a commercial-specific brand.

Pontiac, GM's performance line has been churning out boring crap for over a decade and it too has lost brand credibility.

Now look at Toyota, who couldnt compete with Honda or Nissan for the youth import demographic, so they created Scion, and marketed it very well.

mmm cant wait to head on over to my Chevy/Cadillac/Hummer/Buick/Saturn/GMC/Pontiac/Saab dealership.


Keep Chevy and Cadillac only. Build Buick here to export to China. WE will keep one or two Buicks here if they happen to fall off the truck on the way to the docks to be shipped to China


Match inventory with sales.

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Old 12-08-2008, 10:55 AM   #6
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

As long as the marketing plan for GM includes seperating the Chevrolet dealerships from dedicated dealers selling he Buick, Pontiac and Cadillac, then continuation of the GMC truck line makes sense.

Production wise, the GMC truck is simply a Chevy Truck dressed in different clothes. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I am unaware of any dedicated mechanical components unique to GMC.

The importance of the GMC line is that it allows the Buick, Pontiac and Cadillac dealers to have a truck line, both from purposes of having he historical truck profit center, and a deeper product line at the BPC stores.

Elimination of the GMC product would have little effect on the profitability or sustainability of GM

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Old 12-08-2008, 11:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

GM is keeping the profitable divisions.

GMC is the medium to heavy duty trucks (4 to 10 ton) and makes an ass load of money for GM. the division is not going anywhere.

buick is an old mans car but guess what, old men have money and they buy cars

unfortunately Saturn has never made a dime and the demons of bad luck and timing are going to kill the brand just as it starts to get some interesting and appealing cars.

and for the last time Saturn cannot be exclusively a cheap car brand there is no money in it and after 17 years of Saturn taking crap from the press about building cheap reliable cars why should they "go back to their roots" so they can be the but of jokes again in the media and people can complain again about the panel gaps and buzzy engine.

the reality is folks that if Saturn is to get any real respect their cars have to be better than any BMW and cheaper than a KIA its a no win.

and if you want Saturn to survive don't complain on some relatively irrelevant web forum about how GM doesn't get. BUY ONE !!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 12-08-2008, 12:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

+1. Could not have said it better myself.

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Old 12-08-2008, 11:29 PM   #9
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

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GM is keeping the profitable divisions.
...
and if you want Saturn to survive don't complain on some relatively irrelevant web forum about how GM doesn't get. BUY ONE !!!!!!!!!!!
We bought 2! Does that count? Probably not.

GMC is only profitable because they have VERY little engineering costs (takes a lot to design a new grill and add interior treatments, eh?). The BPG GROUP as a whole doesn't make sense. If there were half as many Saturn dealerships as there are Pontiac shops, Saturn would outsell them 2 to 1.

Like I said, shut down the BPG dealerships that are within 5 miles of a Chevy store, or allow them to sell any combination of Chevy/Caddy/Saturn. Saturn as a standalone brand will die. Put them on the same lot as Chevy, reduce the redundancy across brands, and you'd sell a lot more Saturns. Why? Because they have the best lineup in GM right now.

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Old 12-08-2008, 11:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

Pontiac had countless chances to recapture its image as an all american muscle car brand, most notably when they reintroduced the GTO, which ended up looking more like a suped up taurus than a modern classic like dodge did with the charger and challenger and ford finally managed with the new mustang.

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Old 12-09-2008, 12:58 AM   #11
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by sl_don View Post
GM is keeping the profitable divisions.

GMC is the medium to heavy duty trucks (4 to 10 ton) and makes an ass load of money for GM. the division is not going anywhere.

buick is an old mans car but guess what, old men have money and they buy cars

unfortunately Saturn has never made a dime and the demons of bad luck and timing are going to kill the brand just as it starts to get some interesting and appealing cars.

and for the last time Saturn cannot be exclusively a cheap car brand there is no money in it and after 17 years of Saturn taking crap from the press about building cheap reliable cars why should they "go back to their roots" so they can be the but of jokes again in the media and people can complain again about the panel gaps and buzzy engine.

.........

and if you want Saturn to survive don't complain on some relatively irrelevant web forum about how GM doesn't get. BUY ONE !!!!!!!!!!!
I owned 2 Saturns, and had they had something that fit my needs and was the great value my Jeep Patriot, I would've stayed with them.

But no one has answered this, WHY ARE THEY KEEPING PONTIAC? Talk about a worthless division. I know they're supposed to be the performance division, but how doesn't GM already cover this base with the Chevy SS cars? NOTHING they sell isn't or couldn't be sold elsewhere. At least Buick has some value over in China and could easily have some sportier models if they did some SERIOUS GS and/or T-Type models.
First off, The G5 is a Cobalt,
The Vibe would make a GREAT Saturn
The G6 Sedan pales in comparison to the Malibu and Aura
The G6 Coupe/Convertible would make great Buicks
The G8 would make a great Impala
The G8 ute would make a great El Camino and Colorado replacement.

But, at the same time, I find it hard to justify the same old Saturn lineup right now as well. But I still think Saturn has an image thats far easier to repair than Pontiac's or Buick's. But Saturn once again needs something UNIQUE. I mentioned that I thought the Vibe would make a great Saturn. Why not make Saturn, "the fuel-efficient road-biased hatchback/crossover with AWD option brand"? So with that, here's my slimmer Pontiac-free GM lineup:

Chevy

Aveo
Cruze
Malibu
Solstice/Sky replacement
Camaro
Impala (G8)
Corvette
Traverse
Silverado
El Camino
Tahoe
Suburban

Saturn

Meriva
Astra
Vibe
Zafira
Vue

GMC

Sierra
Canyon, (for those who want a proper small truck)
Commercial Trucks

Buick

LaCrosse
Riviera (G6 Coupe/Convertible replacement)
Enclave
Park Avenue (China model based off G8, to replace Lucerne)

Cadillac

BLS, (a new RWD one sold everywhere)
CTS
STS/DTS replacement with RWD
SRX
Escalade

Under my plan, Saab would sold off. Let Saturn be sold at other outlets, but keep the stand alone Saturn dealers where fit and make sure the new Saturn/X dealers keep the high quality of Saturn service.

Hummer's existence, IMO is dependent on whether or not, a merger with Chrysler takes place. If that happens, KEEP JEEP and dump Hummer fast! Or if it doesn't bring out the H4 based on the HX concept in 2 and 4 dr. forms for a great Wrangler competitor. Dump the other models and allow the other brands to share the floorspace on those beautiful new stand-alone showrooms many dealers built a few years back.

Just some food for thought.

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

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Originally Posted by sl_don View Post
GMC is the medium to heavy duty trucks (4 to 10 ton) and makes an ass load of money for GM. the division is not going anywhere.
GM tried to sell the commercial truck business to Navistar earlier this year. In August Navistar backed out of the deal. GM is trying to sell the business to another company

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:59 AM   #13
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

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Originally Posted by SW2Muck View Post
I owned 2 Saturns, and had they had something that fit my needs and was the great value my Jeep Patriot, I would've stayed with them.
Chevy

Aveo
Cruze
Malibu
Solstice/Sky replacement
Camaro
Impala (G8)
Corvette
Traverse
Silverado
El Camino
Tahoe
Suburban

Saturn

Meriva
Astra
Vibe
Zafira
Vue

GMC

Sierra
Canyon, (for those who want a proper small truck)
Commercial Trucks

Buick

LaCrosse
Riviera (G6 Coupe/Convertible replacement)
Enclave
Park Avenue (China model based off G8, to replace Lucerne)

Cadillac

BLS, (a new RWD one sold everywhere)
CTS
STS/DTS replacement with RWD
SRX
Escalade

just some food for thought.
You're going to need a compact/midsize SUV at Chevrolet.
The Meriva won't sell
The Sky/Solstice relacement should be FWD (same platform as Cruze)
No BLS, Cadillac shouldn't be low rent
VUE can be sold at Buick
No Astra
Zafira at Chevy
No Vibe
Cruze hatchback (made in Korea)
No SRX
Lacrosse becomes LeSabre
Yukon XL at GMC
HD Suburban and Yukon XL (on 2500 HD truck chassis, with diesel engines)

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Old 12-09-2008, 01:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsky View Post
You're going to need a compact/midsize SUV at Chevrolet.
The Meriva won't sell
The Sky/Solstice relacement should be FWD (same platform as Cruze)
No BLS, Cadillac shouldn't be low rent
VUE can be sold at Buick
No Astra
Zafira at Chevy
No Vibe
Cruze hatchback (made in Korea)
No SRX
Lacrosse becomes LeSabre
Yukon XL at GMC
HD Suburban and Yukon XL (on 2500 HD truck chassis, with diesel engines)
A major goal of my plan was to eliminate overlap and find the best way to "save" Saturn as I really think its far less "damaged" than Pontiac or Buick, but because of the whole China thing, you can't really get rid of Buick. Pontiac, as I said earlier, could be just rolled into Chevy, they really offer nothing that couldn't be a Chevy. But for Saturn to survive, it would really need its own niche, thus my whole fuel-efficient crossovers and hatchback idea. Thus my ideas of the Astra staying with Saturn and the Zafira being a Saturn.

You got some good ideas, but some I'm going to have disagree with.....

To me, the Vue has been Saturn's saving grace, its doing well despite the Equinox and Torrent along side of it. If you look at my plan, even after all the cuts, Chevy by far still has the most models. Considering that the Traverse is slightly smaller than some of the other Lambdas, do they really need the Equinox still? As for making the Vue a Buick, I'm not sure if that would work. Perhaps a mini-Enclave to take the place of the SRX instead? I could see that to take the place of the Rendezvous, which was popular.

As for my idea of the Meriva, every one else and their uncle is bringing out a B-Segment car, what does GM have? The Aveo, which compared to the Honda Fit, upcoming Ford Fiesta and others, is absolute rubbish. But Chevy needs a B-Car and being its the mainstream division, a conventional B-Car like the Aveo is needed. But, I think "post $4/gal. gas-America" has become hip to the fact, small cars can be roomy and with a vehicle like the Meriva, it would really open up a new segment here. The only competitor would be the Scion xD, and who really wants to be seen in that ugly thing?

Next, I'm sorry, but the idea of FWD Solstice/Sky is lame. These cars are roadsters, not convertibles for trendy little rich girls like the ones VW makes. These cars were the first real challenge to the Miata. Had they been lighter and had a usable trunk, they could've beaten the Miata, as both cars are really much better looking.

As for the Astra, had it been offered with the wide array of performance and luxury options it has in Europe and actually marketed well, it could've been a serious competitor to the 3, Impreza, Lancer, etc. I like the Astra, its a decent car, but for the money, it should've been more like a Mazda 3, rather than a hatchback Cobalt.

As for the Vibe, I'm not sure if it should continue on as a Toyota clone, (although it wouldn't hurt), but something like it, should continue on. I like the HHR, but I think the whole retro thing has run its course and in a few years, it will be an also-ran like the PT Cruiser. Although, I think the Panel Van version should continue on, as its seems to have caught on with small businesses and people who like to customize cars. But, keep something like the Vibe for everyone else.

I just have one question for you, regarding my BLS idea. Do you consider a BMW 1 or 3 series, low rent? Done properly like those cars and in RWD, not just some lame rebadged Saab, it could be pretty tight and would do well.

As for the Yukon lineup, first off the luxury SUV market is shrinking and do you really need it when often times, the Escalade is often sold on the same lot? The Suburban and Tahoe will always have their niche with big farm families and the "horse set", the Escalade with stars, rappers and athletes. Once again, I was eliminating overlap.

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Old 12-09-2008, 02:10 PM   #15
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Default I keep thinking: U.S. regions have very different tastes

I can't resist wading in with my $.02:

I've always been struck by how different consumer tastes have become in different regions of the U.S. The cars that would be approvingly described in the Midwest as "full featured comfort and affordable luxury" are derided by California drivers as "floaty handling barges". I'll admit it, Cali drivers love manual transmissions and light, fast, and completely unsafe in a crash import type cars. It's just the market here. Whereas our counterparts elsewhere would say "where's the automatic transmission? this thing will rust through in one winter" and so on.

My point here is: I wish GM had marketed different cars to different markets. Most people I work with in the SF Bay Area and in Los Angeles tend to prefer stuff that's made in the U.S., but it has to be *reasonably* well made and meeting their needs. If Saturn had been like Scion, I think it would have found a good niche here on the Left Coast. Maybe it's not too late.

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Old 12-09-2008, 02:18 PM   #16
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Default Re: I keep thinking: U.S. regions have very different tastes

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Originally Posted by linuxdude View Post
I can't resist wading in with my $.02:

I've always been struck by how different consumer tastes have become in different regions of the U.S. The cars that would be approvingly described in the Midwest as "full featured comfort and affordable luxury" are derided by California drivers as "floaty handling barges". I'll admit it, Cali drivers love manual transmissions and light, fast, and completely unsafe in a crash import type cars. It's just the market here. Whereas our counterparts elsewhere would say "where's the automatic transmission? this thing will rust through in one winter" and so on.

My point here is: I wish GM had marketed different cars to different markets. Most people I work with in the SF Bay Area and in Los Angeles tend to prefer stuff that's made in the U.S., but it has to be *reasonably* well made and meeting their needs. If Saturn had been like Scion, I think it would have found a good niche here on the Left Coast. Maybe it's not too late.
Careful with the stereotypes there, surfer dude. You wouldn't believe the number of BMW's, Mercedes, MINI's, Civics and WRX STi's that run the streets back here. We love manual transmissions, too. And we love fast, light and nimble cars as well. Sure, we sell some Buicks, Lexus' (Lexi?) and the like, but to say that consumer tastes here in the Midwest would gravitate towards the, uh, softly sprung and wallowing vehicles, isn't at all true. Try Florida.

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Old 12-09-2008, 05:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenn734 View Post
Pontiac had countless chances to recapture its image as an all american muscle car brand, most notably when they reintroduced the GTO, which ended up looking more like a suped up taurus than a modern classic like dodge did with the charger and challenger and ford finally managed with the new mustang.
Okay, but what can you do when it comes time to redesign the retro styling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SW2Muck
To me, the Vue has been Saturn's saving grace, its doing well despite the Equinox and Torrent along side of it. If you look at my plan, even after all the cuts, Chevy by far still has the most models. Considering that the Traverse is slightly smaller than some of the other Lambdas, do they really need the Equinox still?
The Traverse is the same size as the other Lambdas.

Quote:
As for my idea of the Meriva, every one else and their uncle is bringing out a B-Segment car, what does GM have? The Aveo, which compared to the Honda Fit, upcoming Ford Fiesta and others, is absolute rubbish. But Chevy needs a B-Car and being its the mainstream division, a conventional B-Car like the Aveo is needed. But, I think "post $4/gal. gas-America" has become hip to the fact, small cars can be roomy and with a vehicle like the Meriva, it would really open up a new segment here. The only competitor would be the Scion xD, and who really wants to be seen in that ugly thing?
I would go with the Corsa before the Meriva.

Quote:
As for the Astra, had it been offered with the wide array of performance and luxury options it has in Europe and actually marketed well, it could've been a serious competitor to the 3, Impreza, Lancer, etc. I like the Astra, its a decent car, but for the money, it should've been more like a Mazda 3, rather than a hatchback Cobalt.
Agreed on the marketing, but part of the idea was that this Astra is/was a stopgap until the next generation. Who knows what's in store now.

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Old 12-09-2008, 05:31 PM   #18
davidsky
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

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A major goal of my plan was to eliminate overlap and find the best way to "save" Saturn as I really think its far less "damaged" than Pontiac or Buick, but because of the whole China thing, you can't really get rid of Buick. Pontiac, as I said earlier, could be just rolled into Chevy, they really offer nothing that couldn't be a Chevy. But for Saturn to survive, it would really need its own niche, thus my whole fuel-efficient crossovers and hatchback idea. Thus my ideas of the Astra staying with Saturn and the Zafira being a Saturn.
I was getting rid of Saturn, too much expense

Quote:
As for my idea of the Meriva, every one else and their uncle is bringing out a B-Segment car, what does GM have? The Aveo, which compared to the Honda Fit, upcoming Ford Fiesta and others, is absolute rubbish.
The Aveo and Corsa are going to be merged into a single car. Sell that at Chevy

Quote:
Next, I'm sorry, but the idea of FWD Solstice/Sky is lame. These cars are roadsters, not convertibles for trendy little rich girls like the ones VW makes. These cars were the first real challenge to the Miata.
Trendy little girls is exactly who I'm aiming for. Best customers ever.
Might be pointless either way, you're never going to compete against the Miata
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I just have one question for you, regarding my BLS idea. Do you consider a BMW 1 or 3 series, low rent?
Yes, and definitely beneath what Cadillac should be. Make the RWD sport sedan a Buick. Regal? Skylark? You could also bring back the GS label for the sport trim model


Quote:
As for the Yukon lineup, first off the luxury SUV market is shrinking and do you really need it when often times, the Escalade is often sold on the same lot? The Suburban and Tahoe will always have their niche with big farm families and the "horse set", the Escalade with stars, rappers and athletes. Once again, I was eliminating overlap.
The Yukon XL is a tow vehicle and very often bought by businesses. I figured it would sell to commercial buyers.
I also forgot one car; The Chevy Blazer, take the Hummer H3 chassis and make it look like a Chevy. For the off road fans.

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Old 12-09-2008, 05:34 PM   #19
davidsky
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Default Re: I keep thinking: U.S. regions have very different tastes

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Originally Posted by saturn_69 View Post
but to say that consumer tastes here in the Midwest would gravitate towards the, uh, softly sprung and wallowing vehicles, isn't at all true.
Not unless the F150 suddenly became softly sprung and wallowing.

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Old 12-09-2008, 11:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: GM Just Doesn't Get It

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Originally Posted by davidsky View Post
I was getting rid of Saturn, too much expense

The Aveo and Corsa are going to be merged into a single car. Sell that at Chevy

Yes, and definitely beneath what Cadillac should be. Make the RWD sport sedan a Buick. Regal? Skylark? You could also bring back the GS label for the sport trim model

I also forgot one car; The Chevy Blazer, take the Hummer H3 chassis and make it look like a Chevy. For the off road fans.
First off, and I'm not single-ing anyone out here, but for a site called SaturnFans I can't believe all the people here who want to see Saturn go. Is it shell of what it once was, yes, but you'd rather see them sacrifice Saturn for Pontiac? I just don't understand people's logic there, sorry. But I digress...

Anyway, I agree about the Aveo/Corsa thing, but I think the Meriva would open up a NEW market here in the US, and for once GM could be ahead of the game. After all, Nissan is bringing over the Cube, why not? That the problem with GM, they follow trends instead of leading. As much as we all love the Camaro, it was a response to the wildly popular Mustang which NEVER went out of production! But once again, I digress.......

To address our differences on what constitutes a Cadillac vs. whats a Buick. I think since the CTS, Cadillacs have become more of a driver's car, where a Buick is more about pure comfort. The big cushy Cadillacs of yore are yesterday news. All of Cadillac's competitors are also good driving cars, BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, Audi, Jaguar, etc.
To me, Buick is more of a softer kind of luxury like Lincoln or Lexus. If Buick was to ever have performance models again, I think they would be more like the Saturn RedLines or the Buick GS's of the 90's more than the more aggressive GS cars of the 60's or the T-Type or Grand National cars of the 80's.

BTW, neat idea for a new Blazer, but it would have to be more Jeep Liberty than Ford Explorer to work, IMO. The current TrailBlazer is DOA, (thank God!) and the Explorer is going to be more of a crossover, so the only way a true truck based SUV will survive is in a small focused off-road niche. Also, something like the Patriot would be a nice alternative as well, as its does really well off-road for a car-based vehicle.

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