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Old 07-31-2008, 11:37 AM   #1
slarson
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Default 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Has anyone experienced sudden break failure and not been able to have the dealership duplicate the problem. 55-60 mph with no warning. If so, please contact me at last0701@stcloudstate.edu. I am trying to find a case number to show the problem has been reported to them before. We have only experienced it once, but I have found many similar examples on the web. I have been able to contact 2 individuals so far, but have not been able to get a specific Saturn Case/Complaint number to show them. If you have had someone bring a car in complaining of similar problems I would appreciate any information you might have.

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Old 08-02-2008, 08:35 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Ah, define "Sudden Brake Failure". Where/how were you driving at the time? When did your brake function return?

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Old 08-02-2008, 08:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Sounds like a "I want to get rich quick by sueing Saturn" kind of post, to me. There are so many people trying to do class action suits, it is sad. Only the lawyers make any money on them. Just MHO.

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Old 08-04-2008, 07:55 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Unfortunately, it does. However, I don't see any benefit to us in asking Saturn change out a brake system that has no signs of a problem. We did not ask for a extended warranty or a different car. We also know that unless we sell it to a mechanic who is willing to try and fix it, our only option ethically is to sell it back to Saturn for a hit on the trade-in value and a hit in purchasing a marked up car on their lot. I can assure you that there is no worse feeling than knowing the #1 safety feature in a car may not work at any given time. Thanks for your thoughts though. Did I mention we own 5 saturns within our family and drove 6.5 hours one way to purchase the car in2005?

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Old 08-04-2008, 07:59 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Also, this situation with Saturn took up over 18 hours of phone conversations in one week and two trips to the nearest Saturn dealership which was 75 miles away. This will be in addition to selling the car we really like and finding a new car. The last thing we would want to do is spend a hundreds of hours and too much money pursuing a law suit with a large corporate company. We were not injured in an accident. We just wanted some reassurance that our brakes would work.

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Old 08-04-2008, 08:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Ernesto,
We were driving about 55-60 mph on our way to outlet malls. We saw the usual stop light ahead and began to slow down. There were no brakes. The pedal went strait to the floor. Luckily, my husband was driving and he knew to use the emergency brake. I probably wouldn't have known to do that. The intersection was only about 1/2 mile from a small town, so my husband called his father and got the name of a mechanic in that town. We drove there, turned the car off and went to the door, but they were not open (2nd of July). We drove back to our town (15 miles away) and took it to a mechanic there. One of my father-in-law's friends was just leaving there and he breifly checked the fluids and then got in and tried it. No brakes. We took it around the corner and shut it off and went inside. The mechanic came back out and got in, turned the car on and the brakes worked fine. He changed the rotors and balanced our tires, but he said the brakes, fluids, everything looked fine and that he would not do anything to the car because it appeared to be something other than wear and tear. We bought the car with 15k miles on it and now have 57k. We treat our vehicles well. We cannot say whether pumping the brakes more woud have brought them back. We just had the pedal go to the floor everytime we checked during that time.

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Old 08-04-2008, 09:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Although this can be described as an unusual problem that can't be duplicated, there may be one last try to reproduce the same symptom; pressing the brake pedal slowly with the engine running. The power brake unit is only to lessen the pedal force needed to brake while the master cylinder does the actual braking. If the master cylinder is worn/corroded there is one situation that will allow the pedal to sink; pressing the pedal slowly. I know because I did this many years ago and discovered it by accident while servicing the brake system on another car. Normal braking application doesn't reveal the fault until deliberately applying the brakes slowly. In my case it was a worn out master cylinder as this isn't supposed to happen at all and was most likely due to never flushing the brake system. The best explanation I can come up for this is that the cast iron bore develops pits from fluid absorbing moisture. The pits allows hydraulic pressure to bleed around the piston seal/o-ring. Applied normally, the brakes work fine but when applied slowly the brake fluid leaks around the piston seals resulting in the pedal-to-the-floor situation. Try it and see, with or without the engine running.

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Old 08-04-2008, 11:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Thank you for the information. That is so helpful. If this is the case, how often could this brake failure occur? Only when braking slowly? Does this happen often to vehicles that don't flush their fluids? Have you experienced this in other types of vehicles? Even at such low mileage? Is there no other way to check if the Master Cylinder is corroded?

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Old 08-04-2008, 07:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

I am not an expert on brake systems so my opinions are mine only and can only be of benefit for what its worth. This occurred to me only once in one car and has never occurred again. I attribute this one time event to not bleeding the brake system when needed according to scheduled maintenance, lack of knowledge at the time when bleeding the brake system was required or a corrosion-prone brake master cylinder. This also may be wear related but I never found out with the replacement. This occurred long ago and the fogs of memory has made it harder to recall but the occurrence has left an indelible impression about possible moisture corrosion or premature wear.

There will be conflicting opinions for and against bleeding brake systems. The main issue surrounding brake bleeding, when needed, would be that brake fluid absorbs moisture from the air over time and will require bleeding/flushing to renew fluids. Not doing so may/may not lead to erosion/pitting of the piston bore surface in the master cylinder. The safe recommended bleed/flush interval would coincide with brake service such as when replacing brake pads, rotors, shoes, etc.. This would be whenever the owner decides to have their brakes serviced either before they're required or if failing state inspection. Any time brakes are serviced for major repairs would be an appropriate time for a compete flushing of old fluids for new. My L300 has just 45,000 miles and I decided to completely flush the system as preventative maintenance. My brakes are still original and have plenty of life left to them so in my opinion the brakes don't need servicing but the fluids do. I must state that I do this and accept all risks to inadequate/poor brake maintenance and wouldn't recommend brake bleeding/flushing unless well informed of incorrect procedures that can cause a complete loss of braking capability. This is more important as there seems to be some confusion about DIYer's bleeding/flushing brake systems with ABS and TC enhancements. Being aware of this and the precautions along with information should dissuade those that seem to think ABS enhanced brakes should be left to professional brake specialists. I can humbly say that I've done my first brake flush procedure with absolutely no problems to my L300 with ABS and TC. Done correctly, bleeding or flushing brake hydraulic systems are simple but not for the uninformed as have been and are being posted by those not fully understanding exact procedures when doing it themselves. I am also fully aware that the ABS unit retains brake fluid and never mixes with new fluid until ABS is applied, mixing old with new. A thorough bleeding/flushing a second time would rid this mixed fluid completely. Not exactly done at the dealer level but this also requires due diligence on the car owner to verify that a dealer has performed this extra service by using Saturn specific equipment to exercise the ABS unit to flush out old fluid with the rest of the brake system.

My limited knowledge of brake hydraulic systems is simple; applying as much force whether slowly, quickly, or anything in-between to any brake pedal should never result in flooring the pedal at any time except right after a bleeding/flushing procedure. Hydraulic systems depends on force multiplication as designed; more force creates greater topping power until either the brakes lock up resulting in skidding or enabling ABS for computer assisted braking. A rare occurrence of flooring the brake pedal is that, rare, and would be reported easily by as many car owners if this were occurring more often. Incorrect bleeding/flushing procedures can lead to flooring brake pedals but this is the exception being that poor procedures were followed.

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Old 08-04-2008, 09:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Sounds like the master cylinder. I have had a similar experience with a Dodge Stratus without ABS. I asked Dodge dealer mechanics to diagnose and they missed it first time around. The problem will get worse. Get it fixed right as soon as possible.

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Old 08-05-2008, 09:14 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Thank you both for the information and advice. I will pass the information on to my husband. That will give us a good place to start on what to do next (If we don't sell the car). I really appreciate the time you took to respond. I have one more question though. If we change out the master cylinder and bleed the breaks/flush fluids, is there a way the mechanics will be able to tell FOR CERTAIN that the cylinder was the problem? I understand that you can't be 100% sure, but will they be able tell there was corrosion?

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Old 08-05-2008, 11:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Before contemplating replacement, has anyone even tried slow brake pedal application to see if the pedal will go to the floor? The engine doesn't need to be running but the vacuum boost unit would need to be bled of reserve vacuum from interfering with this test. Simply pump the brakes several times until a definite resistance is felt; all the vacuum in the vacuum reservoir will be bled out and the brakes are now independent of power assist. Now slowly press the brake pedal and see if it will go all the way to the floor. If it does the master cylinder will either need rebuilding or replacement. If the pedal never goes to the floor then it makes your scenario a one time event and all the more mysterious. This doesn't condemn every brake system that hasn't been flushed and new fluid put in nor mean that a major fault occurred since this is an isolated incident. Not being able to duplicate this symptom just makes it very difficult to believe in this brake system being reliable. If its decided to keep the car then it may come down to deciding whether or not simply replacing the brake master cylinder solves this problem. The brake hydraulic system is controlled solely by the brake master cylinder and since no one has found any brake fluid leak the master cylinder is the only issue. An experienced brake mechanic may be able to determine whether or not the master cylinder is at fault or if something else is wrong such as the vacuum boost unit. It may not be visible to see corrosion on the walls of the cylinder bore or pits. Rebuilding by using new piston cups and testing again would confirm the possibility of worn seals. A long tedious process. Many things to consider when attempting to find the cause of a sunken brake pedal.

In olden times, rebuilding was standard procedure but nowadays its wholesale replacement. The brake master cylinder may not be rebuildable if its found to be corroded/pitted. For peace of mind, replacing the master cylinder should restore faith in the basic brake system. Have this done by an experienced mechanic.

When the brake testing is concluded be sure to start the engine and press the brake pedal a few times then slowly move the car and use the brakes to be sure the vacuum boost unit is operating properly. Sometimes the pedal will sink to the floor and this is because of the interaction of the vacuum boost unit and brakes. When the pedal returns to its normal height the boost unit has recharged its reservoir and the brake pedal will operate correctly.

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Old 08-05-2008, 03:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

I'll let you know what we do/find out. This information is very helpful. I can't thank you enough.

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Old 08-09-2008, 09:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

1st off let me state once again that I love this forum. Thanks Charlie!

Just went out to the garage to try the slow brake pedal experiment. 1st was with my 2000 LS2 with 100200 miles. Sure enough the brake pedal was going towards the floor with constant steady pressure, but it was taking a while. I gave up after 60 seconds and tried it again with the same results. I took my foot off of the pedal once more and then tried a normal braking action and got a firm response.

Just for giggles I tried it on our 2003 Vue 3.0 with ABS. Same thing, but slower.

Not too worried about the LS2, yet. My pedal application in this experiment is something that I never do in real world driving.

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Old 08-19-2008, 10:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

We bled the brakes and found no air. We did the slow light brake pressure and did not experience the brake pedal failing. The brake fluid in the resevoir was very murky though. Is this common at 57k? Any other suggestions/ideas/advice?

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Old 08-19-2008, 09:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Brake fluid needs to be replaced at least every 2 years, due to the moisture absorption mentioned by Fdryer. It should never look "murky". This is especially important if you have ABS, as failure to do this can cause the ABS pump unit to fail. Maybe my L-Series is different, but it has an aluminum master cylinder, not cast iron (no ABS). This should not corrode unless chloride is present, as it is for the wheel cylinders of the rear drum brakes. I don't try to bleed these, because the bleeding screws corrode into the aluminum cylinder body permanently.

It sounds as if you have an intermittently malfunctioning master cylinder, perhaps affected by the ABS system. I am curious that no-one has actually disassembled the unit to investigate the problem. There is a lot of talk and very little action. When you show up at a dealership and claim your brakes failed, the problem should be treated seriously and investigated thoroughly.

Can we get a little more description of the problem? Did the pedal go to the floor or did it give resistance but without braking action? Did you have any braking at all (some braking but with very high pedal effort)? I am amazed that you would drive a car with no brakes.

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Old 08-20-2008, 03:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

The brake went strait to the floor. I don't know if you read the posting I wrote a little above that described how long it happened and how many times we turned the car off, etc. We weren't expecting it, so we didn't try pumping the brakes or doing anything special. Everytime he checked (periodically as we drove back to town) it just went to the floor. Then it just started working. Saturn couldn't duplicate the problem, so there was no problem. Sorry to say, but I don't think we will even buy GM cars after this episode. We didn't want to keep it and were going to sell the car to them - so it would be their liability if they sell it someone else-which they were willing to. We decided to at least try and sell it on craigslist with the story of the brakes and see if a mechanic would pick it up for a little more than the trade-in value they were going to give us - $4800, $4200 just to buy it. The car is beautiful and only has 57k. After hearing suggestions from friends that are mechanics and such we finally decided to try and bleed the breaks and see if that was the problem. I'm not sure what we will do now. We live in a small town and I only drive a mile to work and we don't take it on long trips. Thats the only reason we still have it. If we lived in a City, we would have sold it back to Saturn that day. My husband is going to take me out this weekend to try out using the emergency brake so if it happens again, I'll know what to expect. We have a lot of stuff going on with work, family, education and such and simply haven't had time to sit down and figure out what to do.

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Old 08-20-2008, 03:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Just a warning to everyone who owns a GM or Saturn...the service request we made with Saturn when we took it to the dealership for our brake problem was not under warranty and will not show up when they do a history on that car through Saturn. Unless you contact the individual dealership that provided work for that particular car (or any car) - nearly impossible if you buy it and don't know where it came from before that - you would never know what work was done on the car after the warranty...such as if the owner came in and complained about the brakes failing. This was how it was explained to me. They also would not give us any copies of our dealings with them such as a copy of what is written in that service request. Typical for a big corp I guess. Still, frustrating. Let me just say the words "perceived problem" was used too frequently. If you can't duplicate the problem, there is no problem to fix.

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Old 08-23-2008, 08:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

Here is an interesting link regarding the potential hazard of brake fluid contamination - http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/brakes-09-11-06.asp
By any chance was this failure on a very hot day and you made a stop from highway speed?

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Old 08-25-2008, 09:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: 2002 Saturn L200 Sudden Brake Failure

The day our brakes went out it was in the upper 70s to low 80s tops (july 2nd). We were asked that by several people and, to us, the day was really not unusually hot. And we've had hotter since then with no problems. But according to the link you gave, perhaps it was hot enough... We had only gone about 15 miles and were going highway speed, but put the brake on slowly, well ahead of time anticipating the intersection ahead. Otherwise we would have gone right through it. We were able to use the emergency brake for quite a while before the intersection. Thanks for the link! I wish there was a way to know for sure this is what happened. The description in the link and our situation seems quite similar. Ours does differ though in the way that the brakes were out for almost a half hour. I appears those come back fairly quickly. Do you think the article implies it takes a while for the fluid to cool?

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