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Old 03-26-2008, 09:43 PM   #1
craigar
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Default OBDII failed self test smog test failed

97 SC2 210,000 miles mostly original equipment.
I just failed a California Smog test. It passed all emission requirements with flying colors, however it failed the OBD self test. I ran codes and here are the results.

Misfire monitor - ok
Fuel System mon - ok
Comp component - ok
Catalyst Mon - inc
Htd catalyst - n/a
Evap System mon - n/a
Sec Air System n/a
A/C Refrig Mon - n/a
Oxygen Sens Mon - inc
Oxygen Sens Htr - inc
EGR System mon - inc

The car runs as good as ever. 31 mpg. I changed the ECTS sensor and I cleaned the EGR Valve today. Still, same results. No other codes are indicated. I haven't had the battery disconnected in months. Any ideas?

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Old 03-26-2008, 11:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Can you get the freeze frame data when it failed?

Also, are these readings taken AFTER you changed the ECTS?

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Old 03-27-2008, 06:37 AM   #3
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by rc1488 View Post
Can you get the freeze frame data when it failed?

Also, are these readings taken AFTER you changed the ECTS?
Readings were taken Both Before and After I changed the temperature sensor, same results. I don't have the freeze frame data from the original failed smog test. Also, the data on my reader (loaner from autozone) doesn't indicate a freeze frame reading. I'll look into how to capture a freeze frame and if I can do it, I'll write back and let you know the results.
Other info that may or may not be of use:
(a) Interior heater takes a long time to warm up, gauge indicates really low car temp. It will eventually get to about 1/4 to 1/3 after an hour of driving. Sounds like the thermostat stays open, could this be a contributor to my other problem? I haven't yet checked to see if there is a change to the gauge reading or the heater since I replaced the ECTS.
(b) Manual Transmission

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Old 03-27-2008, 07:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

It could be a thermostat, but you should also be seeing a P0128 for failure of engine to come up to temperature fast enough. But that depends on the algorithm to set a code as it varies from car to car and from year to year. Considering the cost, it's worth replacing it to see if that addresses the issue.

What you really need to see is the mode 6 data as well as the freeze frame and pending codes. You will probably not be able to see (and probably won't be able to correctly interpret) these on the lower end scanners. So, without the benefit on that information, you will have to go with the most obvious or likely diagnostic paths and hope you guess right.

The non-continuous monitors need to see sensor data in acceptable ranges in order to successfully run. If one of the senors that contributes to the execution of the monitor test would cause it to fail the test, it won't run the monitor.

In your case, a coolant temp below requirements could very well not allow the monitors to complete since the system won't go into closed loop.

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Old 03-27-2008, 07:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Slow to warm up and unusually low temp gauge readings do indicate a likely stuck open t-stat, and may prevent OBDII diagnostics from a complete check in typical driving to an emissions check scenario.

The P0125 code is for "Insufficient coolant temperature for closed loop fuel control" but the temp limits for it appears to be rather low (~68 F) and a stuck open t-stat may not set it in mild weather.

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Old 03-27-2008, 07:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigar View Post
(a) Interior heater takes a long time to warm up, gauge indicates really low car temp. It will eventually get to about 1/4 to 1/3 after an hour of driving. Sounds like the thermostat stays open, could this be a contributor to my other problem?
Replace the thermostat.

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:09 AM   #7
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Replace the thermostat.
+1. If i remember correctly the car wont go into Closed loop and you fail

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Old 03-27-2008, 09:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed



You have to do this:

http://www.differentracing.com/forum...ead.php?t=1505

Quote:
OBD-II Driving Cycle
If you have a 96 or newer vehicle you have the OBD-II diagnostic system. This system is constantly monitoring the sensors and solenoids on the engine. If you have replaced the battery, disconnected the battery or cleared the codes after making a repair you will need to do what is called a "Driving Cycle". This will perform a diagnostic on all the systems the computer monitors. This cycle can be done in under fifteen minutes.

To perform an OBDII Driving cycle do the following:

1. Cold Start
In order to be classified as a cold start the engine coolant temperature must be below 50C (122F) and within 6C (11F) of the ambient air temperature at startup. Do not leave the key on prior to the cold start or the heated oxygen sensor diagnostic may not run.

2. Idle
The engine must be run for two and a half minutes with the air conditioner on maximum and rear defroster on. The more electrical load you can apply the better. This will test the O2 heater, Passive Air, Purge "No Flow", Misfire and if closed loop is achieved, Fuel Trim.

3. Accelerate
Turn off the air conditioner and all the other loads and apply half throttle until 88km/hr (55mph) is reached. During this time the Misfire, Fuel Trim, and Purge Flow diagnostics will be performed.

4. Hold Steady Speed
Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for 3 minutes. During this time the O2 response, air Intrusive, EGR, Purge, Misfire, and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.

5. Decelerate
Let off the accelerator pedal. Do not shift, touch the brake or clutch. It is important to let the vehicle coast along gradually slowing down to 32km/hr (20 mph). During this time the EGR, Purge and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.

6. Accelerate
Accelerate at 3/4 throttle until 88-96 km/hr (55-60mph). This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 3.

7. Hold Steady Speed
Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for five minutes. During this time, in addition to the diagnostics performed in step 4, the catalyst monitor diagnostics will be performed. If the catalyst is marginal or the battery has been disconnected, it may take 5 complete driving cycles to determine the state of the catalyst.

8. Decelerate
This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 5. Again, don't press the clutch or brakes or shift gears.

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Old 03-27-2008, 10:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Proctor View Post
I
What you really need to see is the mode 6 data as well as the freeze frame and pending codes. You will probably not be able to see (and probably won't be able to correctly interpret) these on the lower end scanners.
Ok, so today's job is replacing the thermostat, but on a slightly different but related subject. What is the best method for getting the complete OBDII readings including the mode 6 data. Do you simply go to a repair facility and ask for a "read and printout"? Does every shop have the ability? Should I go to a Saturn Dealer? I live in a Rural area with only one repair shop (garage). They are the outfit that did my smog check and were extremely vague, lacking in any explanations as to what the smog failure was about. I sensed that they only wanted the extra diagnostic/repair money. They didn't want to give out any info to help me figure out the problem on my own. Thank you SaturnFans.com!

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Old 03-27-2008, 11:04 AM   #10
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigar View Post
Ok, so today's job is replacing the thermostat, but on a slightly different but related subject. What is the best method for getting the complete OBDII readings including the mode 6 data. Do you simply go to a repair facility and ask for a "read and printout"? Does every shop have the ability? Should I go to a Saturn Dealer? I live in a Rural area with only one repair shop (garage). They are the outfit that did my smog check and were extremely vague, lacking in any explanations as to what the smog failure was about. I sensed that they only wanted the extra diagnostic/repair money. They didn't want to give out any info to help me figure out the problem on my own. Thank you SaturnFans.com!
I have a cable that I can connect the car to my laptop. You can drive around and monitor the readings to see when everything is complete.

...
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11.809 @ 116.488 mph
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Old 03-27-2008, 04:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed


New Thermostat installed. After a 10 minute drive and a re-check of codes, only 1 of the original faults was fixed (oxygen htr). I decided it needed a longer drive, so off I went on the famous Bass Lake, North Fork, Oneal's, Coarsegold, Oakhurst LOOP. Not only was it a beautiful drive, it had a beautiful conclusion. It's about 45 miles up and down hills. Got home, did a check and all of the self-test PASSED! YEAH! Thank you to all who helped and made suggestions. You are all Great! Now it's off to the smog check station and happy driving for at least two more years.

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97 SC2 - 243,000 Sold
92 SL - 304,000 RIP

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Old 03-28-2008, 08:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

It's good to know the low cost fixed to pass the emission tests. Look like you are all set for 2 years until the next check-in

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Old 03-29-2008, 07:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

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It's good to know the low cost fixed to pass the emission tests. Look like you are all set for 2 years until the next check-in
2 years, in New York its every year.

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Old 03-29-2008, 07:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

that correct in NYS inspections are in every year,,, Other states are different where he lives.

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Old 03-30-2008, 06:09 AM   #15
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

VA switched to every two years a few years ago, but to make up for it they doubled the cost of the inspection. Go figure...

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Old 03-30-2008, 07:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Michigan-No tests-No, Not at all!!!! Hahahahahahahaaaaaaa! I used to live in San Diego, California. That SUCKED! I love this about Michigan. I could do without the sub-zero temperatures though. Ironically, for the first time in my life I have two cars that WOULD pass emissions. Every car I ever owned in Cali needed something to pass (or in those days you could slip the tech $100 and have him hook it up to another car in your name). Anyways, I feel for all you in the states that test. Oh! New York, every year! that could get expensive.

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Old 03-30-2008, 09:31 AM   #17
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

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Originally Posted by mac99sl2 View Post
Michigan-No tests-No, Not at all!!!! Hahahahahahahaaaaaaa! .
Well, my perspective is this: Without the smog test, I would have continued to drive around in a car that was eating me and itself slowly away. For me the gas mileage was maybe 2 or 3 miles per gallon (30 miles per tank). The car would have surely died before it's time if allowed to continue as it was. Every smog test is a guaranteed oil change and spark plug replacement for me. All good things for the car. Without the tests, my car might be in the heap by now. I'm too lazy to do anything on my own unless "something" forces me to act. I'm ok with the test, even though when it came back as a fail (the emissions passed) I was screaming at the state, now I'm grateful. My complaint is that the "fix" would have cost the average driver who relies on a shop to fix all problems maybe $500 or more where it only cost me $20. 60,000 miles ago, I brought the car to the Saturn dealer to diagnose a heating/cooling problem. My quote was $2400.00. I decided to self-replace the radiator, the fan and the interior fan (maybe $300.00) and it's been fine since. Maybe I should have done the thermostat at that time also! Saturnfans.com THIS IS A GREAT SITE!

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Old 03-30-2008, 10:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac99sl2 View Post
Michigan-No tests-No, Not at all!!!! Hahahahahahahaaaaaaa! I used to live in San Diego, California. That SUCKED! I love this about Michigan. I could do without the sub-zero temperatures though. Ironically, for the first time in my life I have two cars that WOULD pass emissions. Every car I ever owned in Cali needed something to pass (or in those days you could slip the tech $100 and have him hook it up to another car in your name). Anyways, I feel for all you in the states that test. Oh! New York, every year! that could get expensive.
Lucky S.O.B.

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Old 03-30-2008, 05:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

yearly inspections here NYS cost $21 !! 96 years models and up gotta hooking up to DMV computer ! Mine only visual inpections, tires , lights,etc.


Quote:
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Michigan-No tests-No, Not at all!!!! Hahahahahahahaaaaaaa! I used to live in San Diego, California. That SUCKED! I love this about Michigan. I could do without the sub-zero temperatures though. Ironically, for the first time in my life I have two cars that WOULD pass emissions. Every car I ever owned in Cali needed something to pass (or in those days you could slip the tech $100 and have him hook it up to another car in your name). Anyways, I feel for all you in the states that test. Oh! New York, every year! that could get expensive.

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Old 03-31-2008, 09:07 AM   #20
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Default Re: OBDII failed self test smog test failed

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yearly inspections here NYS cost $21 !! 96 years models and up gotta hooking up to DMV computer ! Mine only visual inpections, tires , lights,etc.
I live in NYC, an inspection costs $37.00

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