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Old 01-25-2008, 07:25 PM   #1
Daughters_SL2
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Default Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

My daughter bought a 2000 SL2 last Sept and shes having a problem with the idle. With foot off the gas car has a rough idle and rpm wants to dip low enough to stall. I am not familiar with Saturns but have worked on many different types of cars over the years. Since we didn't know any maintenance history we started with the usual:
New copper plugs, AC Delco wires, new O2 sensors both, pulled ECTS myself and replaced with a OEM all brass one, Dealership replaced ECTS again (within a month of the first one I did) and connector (245.00 !!) while doing a 19.95 oil change special (which ended up on her driveway the next morning..dealer said it was because she had a aftermarket drain plug ..yeah right).

Took off throttle body today and cleaned. No help. I dont have a code reader but Advance Auto parts did and they got codes indicating possibly (1) bad TPS
(2) bad MAP Sensor or (3) bad EGR valve or gasket.

Not sure what to do now. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

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Old 01-25-2008, 07:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

I would examine the EGR valve before anything else as it may affect the idling if its open. At idling speed the EGR valve should be closed so there won't be any exhaust fed into the intake. The quickest test, if its works, would be to pull the connector off the EGR valve and observe if the idle returns to normal; if it does then there may be some debris keeping the EGR valve open when it should be closed but if the rough idle doesn't change you may have to remove it for cleaning. Look in the How-to library for cleaning tips and then try again but leave the electrical connector off for the time being. There may be a SES light but you can ignore it for now. If the engine idles fine now, after the EGR valve has been cleaned, you can put the connector back on and the idle should not change. Now just drive around to check for general engine changes as there shouldn't be any. And the SES light should reset. The pintle valve should be seated after cleaning and remain that way until accelerating, where the valve will open to allow exhaust to mix with the intake air/fuel mixture.

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Old 01-25-2008, 08:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

What were the actual code numbers they read?

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Old 01-25-2008, 08:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Thanks for the prompt reply !!
The only code I am sure of was P1404

It was late and Advance AP was busy and like a dummy I neglected to write the codes down (I will have to have them reread in the morning...or just buy a scanner of my own! Been needing one anyway). Thanks

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Old 01-25-2008, 08:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

DTC P1404 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Closed Position Performance

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Old 01-25-2008, 08:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Thanks fdryer!!
I haven't messed with the EGR at all but I'll be on it first thing. Advance said it could be the EGR itself or the EGR gasket. I test and clean if necessary and put on a new gasket. EGR's kinda expensive tho isnt it (Advance -158.00) Thanks

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Old 01-25-2008, 08:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daughters_SL2 View Post
My daughter bought a 2000 SL2 last Sept and shes having a problem with the idle. With foot off the gas car has a rough idle and rpm wants to dip low enough to stall. I am not familiar with Saturns but have worked on many different types of cars over the years. Since we didn't know any maintenance history we started with the usual:
New copper plugs, AC Delco wires, new O2 sensors both, pulled ECTS myself and replaced with a OEM all brass one, Dealership replaced ECTS again (within a month of the first one I did) and connector (245.00 !!) while doing a 19.95 oil change special (which ended up on her driveway the next morning..dealer said it was because she had a aftermarket drain plug ..yeah right).

Took off throttle body today and cleaned. No help. I dont have a code reader but Advance Auto parts did and they got codes indicating possibly (1) bad TPS
(2) bad MAP Sensor or (3) bad EGR valve or gasket.

Not sure what to do now. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Why did the dealer change the ECTS again? And they charged you 245 for it and you paid it????

...
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Old 01-25-2008, 08:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

My daughters car. She paid them (They took advantage I say).
I called the service manager. She said the mechanic saw evidence of failure (leakage).
I said it was a brand new sensor and if it truly had failed (I dont think it did... they just replaced it out of reflex) she should be refunded for the sensor. We provided the receipt and they refunded the sensor price. The dealership couldn't provide the old one for inspection ...had already been thrown out (along with the old connector)
yeah right.
The ects that I pulled WAS the resin kind and showed cracking. Thanks

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Old 01-25-2008, 09:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daughters_SL2 View Post
My daughters car. She paid them (They took advantage I say).
I called the service manager. She said the mechanic saw evidence of failure (leakage).
I said it was a brand new sensor and if it truly had failed (I dont think it did... they just replaced it out of reflex) she should be refunded for the sensor. We provided the receipt and they refunded the sensor price. The dealership couldn't provide the old one for inspection ...had already been thrown out (along with the old connector)
yeah right.
The ects that I pulled WAS the resin kind and showed cracking. Thanks
so what were the 235 dollars for minus the 15 bucks for the sensor? That is highway robbery if you ask me.....LOL tell her to never do that again...I'd avoid that dealer too unless buying parts...

...
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Old 01-25-2008, 09:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Yeah made me mad as hell. Dealership is Saturn of Orlando (in Casselberry FL)
Lets see... sensor 25.12 connector 34.75 labor 133.50 = 193.37
oil change 19.95 misc matl 14.35 hzd matl 1.83 county tax 2.30 Fla tax 13.77= 52.20
Total gouging = 245.57 (but we were refunded the 25.12+tax for sensor...)

Thanks

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Old 01-25-2008, 09:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Yes, new EGR's are pricey, but you likely won't need one. Just a cheap can of carb cleaner, a rag, and maybe some Q-tips. EGR's shine up good. The gasket will likely be re-usable too, but they are cheap too if needed. Let us know how it turns out tomorrow.

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Old 01-25-2008, 09:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Thanks Old95SL2 !
Would really be great if I could save her the cost of that part at least. Many many thanks and I am definitely on it in the am and will let you know the results.

I also want to say thank you everyone for a warm and helpful welcome to this forum. Very nice!!

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Old 01-25-2008, 10:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daughters_SL2 View Post
Thanks Old95SL2 !
Would really be great if I could save her the cost of that part at least. Many many thanks and I am definitely on it in the am and will let you know the results.

I also want to say thank you everyone for a warm and helpful welcome to this forum. Very nice!!
a good way to get the gunk out of the egr ports on the block is to ever so briefly start the car without it on....it will set the ses and should go right back off....and the rev or two you give it before you turn it off should blow any crud in those ports out......

...
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Old 01-25-2008, 10:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Thanks Phredawgy!
So you're saying before I put the EGR back on after I clean it I should crank up the engine briefly and rev it once or twice to blow out the crud, right?
I dont understand about the ses tho...
Thanks!

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Old 01-25-2008, 11:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

When disconnecting the electric EGR valve (no longer vacuum operated), BIG BROTHER knows you're messin' with the finely tuned and precisely calibrated emission control system that will suddenly pollute the entire planet and cause irreparable damage to our once pristine ecosystem!? BAM! the SES light goes on to rat you out! You will forever wear the scarlet letter "P" for POLLUTER!? Or is it Pimped my ride. Maybe Pulled my valve.........oh, never mind, I can't remember, possibly peed my ride. ........ .

The EGR valve has a feedback position sensor for the PCM to know what position the valve is in (precisely opened/closed with separate stepper motors) and the moment its disconnected the PCM detects something wrong and illuminates the SES indicator. When you're done testing and can connect the EGR valve back, the SES will turn off automatically. In an emissions state, the SES illumination is an automatic state inspection failure with nothing more than a glance at the indicator.

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Old 01-26-2008, 12:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daughters_SL2 View Post
My daughters car. She paid them (They took advantage I say).
I called the service manager. She said the mechanic saw evidence of failure (leakage).
I said it was a brand new sensor and if it truly had failed (I dont think it did... they just replaced it out of reflex) she should be refunded for the sensor. We provided the receipt and they refunded the sensor price. The dealership couldn't provide the old one for inspection ...had already been thrown out (along with the old connector)
yeah right.
The ects that I pulled WAS the resin kind and showed cracking. Thanks
In most states, it is ILLEGAL to throw away old parts without offering them to the customer. If you pushed them hard, mention small claims, they out to refund the labor too.

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Old 01-26-2008, 12:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

I've always had my suspicions about electric EGR's , now I know...
Thanks I understand.I appreciate the explanation.
By the way, what about the MAP sensor? Where is that located and is it subject to crud buildup?
Thanks for all the help!

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Old 01-26-2008, 01:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

What probably happened is that the ECTS connector was corroded. That was the "evidence of leakage" at the dealer. Do you know whether the connector was replaced as well. Map sensor failures on these cars are rare.

...
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Old 01-26-2008, 08:48 PM   #19
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Thanks for responding vernin !
I thought that was true down here in FL but the service mgr said they don't have to return the parts unless the customer asks for them. hmmmm... yeah right.
I guess we could press them as you said but I told my daughter if she took it to the dealership for the 19.95 oil change special only have them do that and NOTHING else. I told her they will try to sell her on some repairs but DO NOT have them do anything other than the oil change. But as it turns out she had the oil change done and drove it home only to find all her oil on the driveway the next morning. She called the dealership and they sent a tow for her car.
They replaced the oil and as she left the second time she noticed the car was running rough so she went back and they said they checked it out and she needed:
Plugs and wires (175.00)
ECTS (I had just replaced a month prior with all brass one... from them!) and connector (245.00) I didn't replace this...didn't look corroded to me.
Rear wheel cylinders (240.00) They said leaking ...I looked at them... they are ok
TA mount and studs (186.00)

Really disappointing!
I told my daughter chalk it up to experience.
We'll only go to that dealership from now on for OEM parts ONLY.
Thanks !!

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Old 01-26-2008, 08:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: Another new owner needs help please 2000 SL2 idle

Im sorry I misspelled.
Thanks Virnin

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