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Old 01-14-2008, 01:23 AM   #1
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Default Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

A new story entry has been added:

Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

Quote:
Saturn announced today at the North American International Auto Show that production will may begin as soon as 2010 on a plug-in hybrid electric version of the Saturn Vue Green Line, expected to be the first regular production plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. Depending on a consumer's drive cycle, the Vue plug-in hybrid will be the most fuel-efficient vehicle offered by a major automaker.

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Old 01-15-2008, 08:50 AM   #2
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

What I saw on the evening news was a retrofitted 05 Vue(no details). They also said it would only add $3,000 to the price tag. Now, if it still has the V-6, are they driving the rear wheels with electric motors?

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Old 01-15-2008, 11:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

The $3000 question is what is the reference point for the "$3000 premium." Is that a $3000 premium over a standard, non-hybrid V6? Or a $3000 premium over then non-plug-in 2-mode hybrid, which is expected to command a rather substantial premium over the standard V6 Vue which already commands a rather substantial premium over the reasonably efficient "normal" 4-cylinder VUE?

Saturn could give us a 28 or 29 mpg highway rated 4 cylinder VUE for $23000 by using the 6-speed automatic (rumored to be in the works already) and the Greenline's tires and aero-tricks. But affordable efficiency seems to be less of a concern that grabbing headlines with the "H" word.

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Old 01-16-2008, 09:12 AM   #4
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

It wasn't GM touting this vehicle, it was a private contractor. It would be nice to retrofit an existing Vue. With a plastic body, it'll last long enough to be worth it.

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Old 01-21-2008, 09:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Originally Posted by gary p View Post
Saturn could give us a 28 or 29 mpg highway rated 4 cylinder VUE for $23000 by using the 6-speed automatic (rumored to be in the works already) and the Greenline's tires and aero-tricks. But affordable efficiency seems to be less of a concern that grabbing headlines with the "H" word.
You know, Saturn gave us 28 or 29 mpg highway rated VUEs for much less than that by using a five speed and none of the fancy tricks. Mine? 17k. Plus it felt rather zippy compared to the auto or CVT. I'll end the sticks are better than slush-o-matics rant now.

I'd love a 2L diesel and stick shift for my VUE. I wonder if I can find some other car that uses a FWD Ecotec that offers a diesel and say a 6 spd so I can refit it. A small diesel or turbo diesel would be great in a VUE and would probably let me tow to the 2500 lb chassis rating and get better mileage.

Anyone want to help me look? Should probably be newer than 2002 and be either a truck or car engine. (VA emissions rules).

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Old 01-22-2008, 02:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

This one only gets 10 electric-only miles per charge? That's practically worthless. Let's hope Big Oil didn't kill another great concept.

AFS Trinity's modified VUE gets 40 miles on an overnight charge. That would get me back and forth and back again to work.

http://dev.smm.org/buzz/blog/suv_con...an_get_150_mpg
http://hybridreview.blogspot.com/200...e-150-mpg.html

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Old 01-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by kodak_jack View Post
It wasn't GM touting this vehicle, it was a private contractor. It would be nice to retrofit an existing Vue. With a plastic body, it'll last long enough to be worth it.
No. Read the article. This was GM/Saturn making an announcement.

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Old 01-22-2008, 03:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Originally Posted by moorepwr View Post
You know, Saturn gave us 28 or 29 mpg highway rated VUEs for much less than that by using a five speed and none of the fancy tricks. Mine? 17k. Plus it felt rather zippy compared to the auto or CVT. I'll end the sticks are better than slush-o-matics rant now.

I'd love a 2L diesel and stick shift for my VUE. I wonder if I can find some other car that uses a FWD Ecotec that offers a diesel and say a 6 spd so I can refit it. A small diesel or turbo diesel would be great in a VUE and would probably let me tow to the 2500 lb chassis rating and get better mileage.

Anyone want to help me look? Should probably be newer than 2002 and be either a truck or car engine. (VA emissions rules).
I have attained a high of 33.98 mpg. with my '06 V6 Vue. The new BAS Vue doesn't even get that. What bothers me is, like you say, all these 6 speed transmissions and hybrid systems that cost more and don't show enough mileage improvement to be justified. I would love a diesel too but it seems American manufacturers are too stupid and ignorant to try market one. All of Opel's models have a diesel option, some meet US standards. So where are they? Stll in Europe of course!

If you want a small used diesel truck, I'm afraid you won't find much. VW is the only one (who is affordable) and don't have much other than cars.

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Old 01-22-2008, 07:24 PM   #9
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Originally Posted by montrealvue View Post
I have attained a high of 33.98 mpg. with my '06 V6 Vue. The new BAS Vue doesn't even get that. What bothers me is, like you say, all these 6 speed transmissions and hybrid systems that cost more and don't show enough mileage improvement to be justified. I would love a diesel too but it seems American manufacturers are too stupid and ignorant to try market one. All of Opel's models have a diesel option, some meet US standards. So where are they? Stll in Europe of course!

If you want a small used diesel truck, I'm afraid you won't find much. VW is the only one (who is affordable) and don't have much other than cars.
You got 33.98 mpg and you think that's better than a BAS? How do you know? How would the BAS have done under those identical driving conditions?

American manufacturers are too stupid and ignorant to market a diesel? I think your focus is in the wrong area. How many cars in the US market are currently available with a diesel, either from a US or foreign automaker? While you're looking for the few out there, maybe you'll wonder why there are so few. Is it REALLY because manufacturers are that "ignorant"? Or perhaps is it because the emissions regulations in the US (specifically those related to particulate and NOx emissions) are so strict in comparison to those in the EU that they make it cost and technology prohibitive to sell in the US? I'll give you a hint: it's not the collective idiocy on behalf of the manufacturers.

If you want a diesel engine stateside, don't be complaining to the manufacturers. Take that issue up with congress. Those geniuses that think the auto companies have 100mpg carburetors collecting dust on a shelf and that 35mpg is no problem to achieve, yet they impose emission regulations that prohibit the use of more fuel efficient diesel engines.

I'm curious to know though, which of Opel's diesel engines do you think meet US emissions standards?

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Old 01-23-2008, 06:08 AM   #10
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Originally Posted by D C View Post
You got 33.98 mpg and you think that's better than a BAS? How do you know? How would the BAS have done under those identical driving conditions?

Or perhaps is it because the emissions regulations in the US (specifically those related to particulate and NOx emissions) are so strict in comparison to those in the EU that they make it cost and technology prohibitive to sell in the US? I'll give you a hint: it's not the collective idiocy on behalf of the manufacturers.

If you want a diesel engine stateside, don't be complaining to the manufacturers. Take that issue up with congress.

I'm curious to know though, which of Opel's diesel engines do you think meet US emissions standards?
I was making the point that if some wanted 30 mpg highway rating from the VUE, then maybe the hybrid and other stuff was excessively expensive considering a FWD4/5M was rated at 28 or 29 mpg. Heck, over Thanksgiving I got 30.6 mpg, and that included hitting a deer and averaging like 65+ mph. If I just slowed down I could beat that. Poo on Saturn for not offering a 5 or 6 speed stick in the new VUE.

The BAS (assuming you mean Belt-Alternator/Starter Mild Hybrid) probably wouldn't help highway ratings much because of the added weight of the system. In the city, their's no comparison and I never meant to imply that there would be one.

Personally, I'd love a plug-in hybrid, but a 10-mile electric range is a bit of a joke. Maybe that's just because of the "barn door" aerodynamics of the VUE. Maybe they didn't put that many batteries in there. The Flextreme concept Saturn showed would be great as a plug-in hybrid Astra.

On to diesels: One of the issues for autos is the NOx restrictions and the fuel standards Congress allowed. Refiners aren't going to make better diesel and charge more unless the standards are raised. Now that the fuel is cleaner, the cars can follow. Raising the CAFE won't help, the fleet economy is mostly the consumer's fault here. Instead of buying 1992 Civics (small, lightweight cars) the SUV's and Hummers were flying off the lots.

Which diesels would pass muster here? I bet there are plenty of Euro diesels that would work fine in a 2002 truck (my VUE) in Virginia. To be honest, I haven't researched it, but I do recall that truck emissions used to be more lax than car emissions, and a European car engine would probably be close in a truck. I guess it's off to VW-land for a TDI VUE.

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Old 01-23-2008, 07:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Which diesels would pass muster here? I bet there are plenty of Euro diesels that would work fine in a 2002 truck (my VUE) in Virginia. To be honest, I haven't researched it, but I do recall that truck emissions used to be more lax than car emissions, and a European car engine would probably be close in a truck. I guess it's off to VW-land for a TDI VUE.
But your VUE isn't a truck. For fuel economy, which ironically is regulated by NHTSA and NOT by the EPA, it's considered a truck. For emissions, regulated by the EPA, it's not. Yes, we have two separate government agencies involved in fuel economy and emissions regulations.

Thanks to the emissions regulations, even VW dropped their TDi from the US market after the 2006 model year. They say they're going to re-introduce a TDi during 2008, but you sure can't configure one on their website.

Personally, I'd love to see small diesels in cars. They're so much better than they were 20-30 years ago, I think people would be more willing than ever to put up with them in favor of the fuel economy gains. Not going to happen any time soon thanks to the .gov

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Old 01-23-2008, 09:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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You got 33.98 mpg and you think that's better than a BAS? How do you know? How would the BAS have done under those identical driving conditions?
Exactly. I'm always amused by those who toss out one MPG number and declare it useful data. Overall AVERAGES, not one tank, compared directly to another vehicle in the same situations/conditions is what matters. I could take a V6 VUE, beat the snot out of it and achieve 13 mpg, and declare it terrible on gas. Does that make sense?

The BAS actually does help on the highway quite a bit, and the battery/BAS parts extra weight is quite minimal. I too would like to see more efficient trannies in the VUE, but just because it has more gears, doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. After all, the 5-spd manual FWD VUE has lower highway MPG (from the EPA) than the 4-spd auto. At highway speeds, the manual really revs the engine while the 4-spd auto lopes along at about 2100 rpm at 70 mph. I would prefer a manual too, but I never understood why the 5-spd has such a low 5th gear.

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Old 01-23-2008, 03:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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No. Read the article. This was GM/Saturn making an announcement.
"AFS Trinity corporation"
So, this company is a GM subsidiary? I doubt it. Maybe GM hired an independent contractor to develop it?
I realize the pictures are very simplistic, but it looks as if they're driving one front wheel with the engine and the other with the electric motor (?). I don't know how they can fit anything else up in front. It's crowded enough (see thread about being able to work on your own Vue).

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Old 01-23-2008, 03:36 PM   #14
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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But your VUE isn't a truck. For fuel economy, which ironically is regulated by NHTSA and NOT by the EPA, it's considered a truck. For emissions, regulated by the EPA, it's not. Yes, we have two separate government agencies involved in fuel economy and emissions regulations.

Thanks to the emissions regulations, even VW dropped their TDi from the US market after the 2006 model year. They say they're going to re-introduce a TDi during 2008, but you sure can't configure one on their website.

Personally, I'd love to see small diesels in cars. They're so much better than they were 20-30 years ago, I think people would be more willing than ever to put up with them in favor of the fuel economy gains. Not going to happen any time soon thanks to the .gov
Diesels aren't a piece of cake to take care of, especially up North where it gets very cold. They also stink like hell and make a little too much noise for most drivers and their neighbors. GM has introduced a couple too many duds for people to trust them to come up with a decent diesel.

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Old 01-23-2008, 10:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

I have two questions about the plug in Vue, it would be great for me , but--.
1. We have cold winters, so will that affect the battery operation?
2. Would it be possible to warm up the interior of the car, from the battery, or plug in, or would a person just have to drive and freeze his, or her, b---s off?

john

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Old 01-23-2008, 11:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

The Plug In Vue would be ideal for me. but, I come from 'the frozen north', so---.
1. Would cold hurt battery perfomance in winter?
2. Would it be possible to get any heat into the interior of the car, via the plug in, or would a person just have to drive, and freeze his, or her, b---s off?

john

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Old 01-23-2008, 11:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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"AFS Trinity corporation"
So, this company is a GM subsidiary? I doubt it. Maybe GM hired an independent contractor to develop it?
I realize the pictures are very simplistic, but it looks as if they're driving one front wheel with the engine and the other with the electric motor (?). I don't know how they can fit anything else up in front. It's crowded enough (see thread about being able to work on your own Vue).
Wrong article. Read the one Charlie posted in the original post. It's from GM/Saturn.

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Old 01-24-2008, 03:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Wrong article. Read the one Charlie posted in the original post. It's from GM/Saturn.
Well, of the two, the AFS Trinity version, not backed by a multi- bazillion dollar car company, seems better. The highlight of the GM/Saturn version is a whopping 10 miles per charge? Forget it!

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Old 01-24-2008, 03:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Originally Posted by mr green View Post
I have two questions about the plug in Vue, it would be great for me , but--.
1. We have cold winters, so will that affect the battery operation?
2. Would it be possible to warm up the interior of the car, from the battery, or plug in, or would a person just have to drive and freeze his, or her, b---s off?

john
If it's a hybrid, the internal combustion engine, a GM 3.6L V-6, would supply conventional heating - until the intake manifold gasket blows.

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Old 01-24-2008, 06:51 AM   #20
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Default Re: Plug-In Vue Hybrid May Arrive as Soon as 2010

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Exactly. I'm always amused by those who toss out one MPG number and declare it useful data. Overall AVERAGES, not one tank, compared directly to another vehicle in the same situations/conditions is what matters. I could take a V6 VUE, beat the snot out of it and achieve 13 mpg, and declare it terrible on gas. Does that make sense?
Absolutely. The *worst* tank I've gotten was 24 mpg and that was towing a trailer that was right at the 1500 lb two rating for the vehicle up and down the road here when I was moving. (no fifth gear, holding it in lower gears longer...) I generally clear 26 mpg when I'm not trying to get good mileage. I guess the habit of people to toss out one number was because it was as useful as the original EPA fuel economy test.

The other point is that the BAS stuff is pretty heavy because you already start with an automagic car, so you have that additional weight too. And at a 3400 lb curb weight, each 100 lbs is ~3% more rolling resistance, plus having to lug that lump around during accelerations in the city portion. I'm not saying it isn't useful either, just that the cost doesn't warrant the benefits. That opinion applies to all the other hybrids too.

I think the reason the 5-spd manual is geared the way it is is to keep you from having to downshift as much to pass and maneuver in traffic on the highway. (the driver has to do it on the FWD4) I'll get you a tach reading at 70 this morning just for info.

As an added observation, it's really interesting to me to note the *very* different experiences people have working on their VUEs due to the vastly different powertrain combinations. I haven't had to do much work on mine, but it's a piece of cake. I have tons of room in there.

...
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