ABS and Breaking system failure

[juise15]

I have a 2006 Vue and I have only had it a few months. I am noticing a problem with the vehicle that is troubling me. First off, everytime I crank the car and put it in gear and start going, I get a weird grind/rub sound which I can feel in the steering wheel. So I have had to live with that noise for a while. Secondly, I have noticed if I have to stop abruptly (or just even stop regularly for that matter), I feel and hear a long rub/grind noise coming from the braking system.

Before you dismiss this as a rotor/brake disc problem consider this. Since purchasing the Vue, saturn has replaced the ABS system in the car. They said the 'farting noise' was a problem with that system and that it was going on. I said fine and they replaced it. Well over the past couple of months, it has returned and the other problem has gotten worse. The car was having trouble stopping and taking longer than usual. Again the Saturn techs said everything was peachy.

I am wondering if this problem is going to mean the eventual replacement of the ABS system again? Im scared that I will be driving and all of the sudden lost my ability to stop. I have also noticed that sometimes the thing is slow to respond to the brake which is cause for alarm.

Please help me if you can so I dont end up killing myself or someone else.

[Threesticks]

My '06 Vue V6 AWD does the same grunt/heavy sigh thing when I put the car in drive and begin to move. It sounds like a hydraulic system pressurizing. Every thing else seems to be working fine though.

It was raining last week and I had an opportunity to use the anti lock and they seemed to work the same as always.

If it's still under warantee take it back to the dealer and have them take a look at the car and fix or replace as necessary, or find a local independent garage that you trust take a look at it soon.

[fdryer]

You have a valid concern for your safety especially when you state that "The car was having trouble stopping and taking longer than usual. Again the Saturn techs said everything was peachy." Please don't take this as gospel but my understanding of the anti-lock brake system is that if there were any malfunction of any part of the ABS unit (apart from the standard hydraulic brakes), the fallback is automatically relying on the proven standard brakes. To elaborate a bit, again based on my understanding of braking systems and the advent of ABS, some common sense had to be employed to ensure the integrity of the standard brakes by a designed default in the ABS; the electrically operated valves, cycling at high speed in conjunction with the auxiliary ABS pump, when a failure occurs should fail in the closed position thereby leaving no possibility of the ABS unit compromising the rest of the brake system that will still operate.

By having to take longer to stop than usual suggests at least two events taking place - 1) The brakes weren't adjusted or tested after the ABS unit was replaced and 2) you braked hard, enabled the ABS to activate with poor results. Activating ABS should have given you positive feedback through the brake pedal by the pulsing vibration if you had to brake very hard. Normal braking taking longer than usual just means the brakes need adjustment and/or repair. All of this should be covered under warranty. Insist on it or take it up to the next level. There are some here that had the opportunity to take their vehicle to another Saturn service center with positive results.

[spencerb]

The grinding at startup is the normal ABS self-check. If the ABS activates while stopping, it means that it detected wheel lockup. It doesn't always have to be noticeable lockup for it to activate. If it activates inadvertently, it's probably a bad wheel speed sensor.

There are many components to the ABS system, and it's unlikely they replaced all of them.

I would notice in my VUE that sometimes the ABS would activate during slow turns even without putting on the brakes. I replaced both front wheel hubs (which include the wheel speed sensors) for bad bearings, and the problem went away. Given that it would only happen sometimes, diagnosing the problem would be near impossible.

[tackepj]

As fdryer said, poor braking performance under normal circumstances isn't an ABS problem, but a problem with the brakes. Replacing the "entire ABS system" really isn't that much stuff, and most of it is electronic (maybe all?). It may be that your pads are wearing and need to be replaced.

As for the fart, I'm not sure why the dealer thinks it's a problem--that's normal and part of the self-check of the ABS system. Both our VUE and L300 did it.

In what condition are your tires? Chances are, you have the original Duellers on this VUE and they might be about shot. Excessive ABS activation may be due simply to bad tires.

[juise15]

Well I guess Ill go ahead and mention it was involved in a pretty serious crash, a result of that.

Im still trying to figure out how the system (which was changed in March/April) checked a couple of times afterwards was going out. However, im suspicious of this because

1. Some of the posts on this forum

2. The car was showing signs of this here recently, the same as when i purchased it.

[juise15]

Could this have anything to do with the BCM?

I did notice about 2 weeks ago when I cranked the car the speedometer maxed out while I was sitting in park with nothing being pressed.

[spencerb]

Originally Posted by juise15

Could this have anything to do with the BCM?

I did notice about 2 weeks ago when I cranked the car the speedometer maxed out while I was sitting in park with nothing being pressed.

I don't think the ABS is controlled by the BCM. The speedometer issue may be a bad BCM or a bad speed sensor (on the transaxle?). It could be related, in that the car may activate ABS when it thinks the wheel speeds are too low for the vehicle speed. A blip in the vehicle speed that may not be noticeable could cause it.

[juise15]

So does anyone know of any situations where the ABS has failed and brakes have failed as well?

[Gerry Proctor]

If the ABS fails, you have non-ABS braking. A complete failure of every piece in the ABS, including the valve body, will not have any affect of your car's ability to stop. You just won't have ABS.

[juise15]

Well I wonder what the heck failed then. The car didnt stop and it made a bad noise

[Bunshaw]

Originally Posted by juise15

Well I wonder what the heck failed then. The car didnt stop and it made a bad noise

If you have access to a large empty! parking lot, you can try to force activate ABS to determine if that's what you're really feeling/hearing. Get up to about 30mph and really get on the brakes. The test here is to stop as quickly as you can and force wheel lockup. If you feel the same thing as before then it's not definite, but it is highly likely that you have a bad speed sensor somewhere and ABS is engaging too often/too soon.

If ABS is engaging under normal driving conditions, it might give the impression that the vehicle is difficult to stop and/or has an excessive braking distance.

[juise15]

I would try that but the vehicle has been wrecked and is undriveable for good.

[kaviation]

So are you saying that the accident happened because of the brakes?

[fdryer]

There's something wrong here and perhaps explaining from the start may help us all to understand what may have occurred. Halfway through these posts is the realization that this vehicle was involved in a serious accident but starts with asking about braking and ABS replacement. Sort of putting the cart before the horse.

Any serious accident where the insurance company writes off a car is investigated. Speculating here is secondary and of no real importance as no one has any visible and physical evidence to make a judgement call, including my opinions. If this car was under waranty, brakes and ABS were serviced by Saturn, and an accident occurred that may bring into question whether the brakes worked properly or not becomes speculation since no one can ascertain the cause of the accident here on these forums. Some other facts to consider; time of day, weather conditions, traffic, driver frame of mind, speeds involved, the number of vehicles involved in this accident, etc., etc..

[kaviation]

Well, I guess now he doesn't have to worry about fixing his brakes.

[burnout]

Originally Posted by juise15

I am wondering if this problem is going to mean the eventual replacement of the ABS system again? Im scared that I will be driving and all of the sudden lost my ability to stop. I have also noticed that sometimes the thing is slow to respond to the brake which is cause for alarm.

...And 2 days later the car is wrecked?

Hrm...

[juise15]

It was wrecked when i made the post, just didnt want that to be a factor in the communication of this post.

[1saxman]

Dude! Dryer's statement was spot-on. Even if somebody here said, based on nothing, that the brakes caused the accident, it would be meaningless. You need professionals to examine the vehicle and determine if the brakes were working at the time of the accident. If the brakes were malfunctioning, you knew it and drove the car anyway, then I guess this thread becomes evidence, doesn't it?

[juise15]

This is going to end up becoming a war of words, which is pointless.

The facts remain: I did bring to Saturn, they did say it was working normally.

Between that time and now, I noticed a couple of occasions where the vehicle's stopping powers or braking system was lacking, however, a call to saturn said it was normal operation of the ABS system.

It appears as if you want the vehicle to be brought in for service to say "well the braking system is performing like i think it needs to". What are they going to say? In this area, most likely, they will say not able to duplicate -- end of story.