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Old 05-22-2007, 06:27 PM   #1
tweeaks
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Default Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

First time poster here, hello everyone.

I bought an 02 L300 that will not start. I pulled the codes, but the book that came with my scanner only has a few of them listed.

These are all Pending Codes, which I am assuming means won't go away.

P0118- Engine Coolant Temp Circuit High Input
P0123-TPS/Pedal Position Sensor A CKT Intermittent
P0223-TPS/Pedal Position Sensor Switch B Circuits High Input
P0343-Camshaft Position Sensor A-Bank 1 Circuit High Temp

These are the ones that I don't know. These are also Pending Codes.

P1779
P1791
U2105

The shop that diagnosed the car said that the ECM was bad and that it was not providing a ground to the ECT/TPS/EGR/etc. circuit. After scanning the codes I believe that it is the Camshaft Position Sensor. The vehicle is getting plenty of fuel, but no spark. Also the wires to the TPS sensor are exposed and have been rubbing on the hood, so that is what I believe is causing the ECT/TPS codes to be thrown repeatedly, but the wires shorting out could have caused a short in the ecu and now the ecu needs to be replaced....

How can I troubleshoot the CPS sensor and find out if it is bad. How can I troubleshoot the ECU????

All help is appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeremy

*edit I forgot to mention that it is the 3.0 V6 model

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Old 05-22-2007, 07:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Did you buy the car this way or was it running before the sudden failure? And
how did you check for the no-spark condition? A shorted coolant sensor, in my opinion, should not damage the ECM as it has built-in circuit protection as long as voltage isn't directly fed into the ECM. The shorted coolant sensor will either make the engine run excessively rich or so lean that the engine won't hold an idle at start-up and stall. Factually, the coolant sensor only works on 5v and less. Since you haven't described any of these two situations the possibility of damage to the ECM is remote.

Before jumping on the CPS circuit have you visually examined the main fuses under the hood that supply power to the electronics? The simple and easiest checks go a long way in eliminating wild goose chases.

To cut to the chase and answer the CPS check question; unplug the CPS connector and check for resistance of the CPS. An open would indicate a failed CPS and any resistance read would imply a viable CPS. The CPS is located either to the right or left of the oil filter and held by one 10mm bolt.

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Old 05-22-2007, 07:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

I checked the no spark condition by removing the intake runners and pulling the coil pack on both banks. Neither is getting spark to any of the cylinders. I came across the DIY after doing it today, and to all interested in DIY your spark plugs, it took less than an hour......Maybe I'll Make a picture how-to to help contribute to the site when I am putting it back together.

The first thing that I did was Check all fuses(every single one) and replace relays.

The short is actually in the TPS harness, every single wire was exposed and was rubbing the hood....not sure if that matters or not. I cut, resoldered, and heat shrunk the wires already.

I am going out to check the CPS sensor right now, I will post what I find.

Man this is going to be great if this is the only problem. I recently bought a Lexus es300 for $500. The timing belt snapped while the owner was driving it. The owner paid a so-called mechanic to replace the timing belt, tensioners and water pump. Guess what the car wouldn't start after that. After re-setting the timing numerous times I towed it to Autozone to get the codes scanned...hmmm the only one was a camshaft position sensor. After spending $150 and replacing itthe car still wouldn't turn over. I got to looking more carefully at the timing belt and components and found that the gear that the CPS sensor gets it's signals off of had 3 teeth broken off of it. Well, $35 and a new sprocket from Toyota later I am driving the Lexus.......

Last edited by tweeaks; 05-22-2007 at 08:08 PM..

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Old 05-22-2007, 08:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Checked the CPS, it measured open. Let me make sure the CPS is what I checked though. It's the two pin plug on the front timing cover next to the three pin Camshaft Position Sensor correct? If so how do you check the CamPS?
Looks like the problem is going to be solved fairly easily.

Thanks,
Jeremy

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Old 05-22-2007, 09:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

The CPS is not by the camshaft but below next to the oil filter; crankshaft position sensor next to the crankshaft. The CPS is a two-wire device that will have a resistance between 800-1200 ohms.

The three-wire camshaft position sensor that you're attempting to read will not indicate on a meter properly as it needs a 5v reference signal to operate the output signal that will be a digital signal, either 5v or 0v when this hall effect sensor has sensed a tooth on the reluctor wheel mounted on the camshaft. Similar to the early solid state distributors using toothed wheels that passed through a U-shaped hall effect sensor; sensing metal will generate a signal but it needs a reference voltage to operate.
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeaks View Post
Checked the CPS, it measured open. Let me make sure the CPS is what I checked though. It's the two pin plug on the front timing cover next to the three pin Camshaft Position Sensor correct? If so how do you check the CamPS?
Looks like the problem is going to be solved fairly easily.

Thanks,
Jeremy
No, its located under the oil filter

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Old 05-23-2007, 01:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

That's odd, I went out to check the CPS, and it is a three wire.....any advice? I am not real familiar with meters, but I would want to set my meter to the 2000 point on the ohms setting correct?

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Old 05-23-2007, 05:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeaks View Post
That's odd, I went out to check the CPS, and it is a three wire.....any advice? I am not real familiar with meters, but I would want to set my meter to the 2000 point on the ohms setting correct?
Where did you check for the CPS? As I see it you were given two(2) pictures of its location. It's described as a two-wire sensor from the factory service manual with the resistance mentioned. Please don't confuse the cam position sensor, which is a three-wire sensor, with the crank position sensor including their location on the engine. If you are confused on the location and the difference between a two-wire and three-wire sensor plus unfamiliar with a multimeter you may be setting yourself up for even more confusion and may start chasing your own tail. Be sure of which components are what they are before presuming a hoped for outcome. Unfamiliarity with a multimeter won't help if you haven't used it but once accustomed to its purpose, resistance reading in this case, it becomes another tool just like any other tools used in maintenance. And yes, turning the knob to the next larger resistance selection, range selection in anticipation of the reading falling within a selected range, should allow you to read the CPS resistance. Be sure you are testing a two-wire sensor and not a three-wire one.

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Old 05-23-2007, 07:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Where did you check for the CPS? As I see it you were given two(2) pictures of its location. It's described as a two-wire sensor from the factory service manual with the resistance mentioned. Please don't confuse the cam position sensor, which is a three-wire sensor, with the crank position sensor including their location on the engine. If you are confused on the location and the difference between a two-wire and three-wire sensor plus unfamiliar with a multimeter you may be setting yourself up for even more confusion and may start chasing your own tail. Be sure of which components are what they are before presuming a hoped for outcome. Unfamiliarity with a multimeter won't help if you haven't used it but once accustomed to its purpose, resistance reading in this case, it becomes another tool just like any other tools used in maintenance. And yes, turning the knob to the next larger resistance selection, range selection in anticipation of the reading falling within a selected range, should allow you to read the CPS resistance. Be sure you are testing a two-wire sensor and not a three-wire one.
I looked at the sensor pointed out in the picture.....Mine is not a two wire sensor like posted in IMkenNY pic. Instead of my harness running to the sensor and plugging into the sensor, like shown, The harness is part of the sensor(cannot be unplugged at the sensor and runs back up to the main harness that comes out of the fuse box. Maybe there was a change after a certain year?

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Old 05-23-2007, 07:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

The replacement from rockauto.com, does it look like this?
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Old 05-23-2007, 09:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Yes sir. The plug has three male pins, and the female side has three wires running out of it.

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Old 05-23-2007, 10:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Ok, I hate humble pie!? Here's another pic of the three-wire CPS as shown; there is a third(3rd) wire and it serves as an electrical shield that goes to ground. Its sole purpose is to isolate the small signals generated from the CPS. As shown, the two main wires are color-coded PPL and YEL, purple and yellow, while the shield wire is BLK/WHT. The two pins to the sensor may be labeled A and B on the housing.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:31 AM   #13
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Ok, I hate humble pie!?
It's no problem, I'm just glad that there are still people who will admit there faults and still try and help out. Where I work, when you try and tell someone what is wrong with something and they don't agree thats what's wrong with it, and they found out that the problem is what you stated they will say they fixed it by doing something else, just so they don't have to admit that they were wrong.

Checked resistance of the CPS and got a reading of 871, so the CPS is okay. I'm not really sure what to do next....

I am appreciating all of the help! As soon as I figure out what is wrong with this thing I am going to do a step by step picture tutorial for all these guys to change their plugs. I was reading that some people paid upwards of $600 for this job! That is ridiculous. All you need is a torx socket set ( $20 at Autozone or NAPA NAPA's seemed like way better quality than the great neck set I found at Autozone,) a ratchet w/ extensions, a small pair of channel locks, and two hours tops if you've never done any mechanical work before. You'll spend $50 tops on tools if you don't own any.

Last edited by tweeaks; 05-24-2007 at 10:43 AM..

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Old 05-24-2007, 03:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

That's very nice of you to not beat me over the head with an internet connection, our L-series cps' seem to need this extra wire compared to the S-series two-wire cps' and that was my conclusion. Incorrect of course.

The FSM does mention that the cam position sensor "may or may not cause the engine to start". I didn't want to bring this up before until the cps issue was resolved especially since I am troubled by the FSM line of "may or may not". It leaves me with the distinct impression that Saturn went to print before deciding on this part's influence and instead just printed their own bewilderment. I don't think I've ever come across any technical publication with this one line indecision. So with that in mind I can only advise you that your options to test the cam position sensor affecting the engine starting sequence leaves you with two choices; having a known good substitute perhaps either from a junk yard or new one, or testing/monitoring the output signal with someone cranking the engine for you.

As to any/all OBD II codes you can find them all in the How-to library. The U 2105 refers to lost communications with the body control module (BCM); more wiring to look over I guess. The ECM controls engine management, BCM controls lighting, anti-theft system, the i/p, all secondary functions, and the powertrain control module (PCM) runs the transmission. All three mini-computers communicate with each other and the BCM lights up the SES and other flags to tell the driver the status of all systems before/at failure.

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Old 05-24-2007, 05:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Went out and checked the CMPS. These are the readings I found:

GRY-Constant 5V
BL/W- Jumped around 7-9 spiked to 22V
PPL- Jumped around 7-9 spiked to 16V

Does that look right?

New discovery!!!!!!!!
Earlier I tried to re-pull the codes, and I couldn't link......after looking it over a bit I rememberd I had to unbolt the ECM from the manifold to pull the manifold off. I bolted it back up and my scanner could now link to it......checked spark and I now have spark. I guess the ECM has to be grounded....

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Old 05-24-2007, 05:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

Went back out to bolt everything back up real quick and see if the car will start......nope still won't start. I also pulled the timing covers back to ensure that the timing belt hadn't busted.....still intact and tight.

Well today was my last day off....I might not be back for the next four days until my days off and I can re-address the issue. Should I order a new ECM? Could it be the culprit?

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Old 05-24-2007, 07:39 PM   #17
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Default Re: Car Won't Start, Got Some Codes.

If there isn't a DTC code 0340 camshaft position circuit performance then the lack of this code would indicate the cmp is working despite the erroneous voltage readings. The FSM describes a train of 1010101 or 10101010, 0v or 5v, digital signals for every eight crankshaft revolutions. Despite the higher than expected voltages I can't say its the ECM. I will declare that only one poster has replaced his ECM after exhausting every effort to ensure every sensor was operating correctly on his S-series car before finally finding that the ECM was the cause of stalling out after a full warm-up.

Meticulously measuring O2 output, IAT, ECTS, cleaning/replacing the EGR valve, cleaning IAC valve, fuel pressure check, and going over the wiring harness still caused his engine to die after warm-up. Going back to reading and observing the O2 (also replaced) output change incorrectly made him decide to try an ECM. It worked. The ECM would fault out disabling the O2 signal as if it shorted internally but only after it allowed the engine to run during a cold start. Electronics plays strange tricks.

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