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Old 05-18-2007, 10:27 AM   #1
carlb
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1994 SW2
Default A Little Help Please

1994 SW2 140K miles. The vehicle starts normally then stalls after about 5 minutes. Will not restart for about another 5 minutes and repeats cycle. While it is in the no start mode, I have spark across both coil pack towers, the fuel pump runs and I have replaced the ECTS. I am suspecting fuel cutoff either by the PCM or a sensor. Any suggestions? I have searched the forums but other than the ECTS it could be anyting. Thanks in advance for your support and help.

Carl

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Old 05-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #2
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: A Little Help Please

Clogged fuel filter finally strangling the fuel flow?

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Old 05-18-2007, 10:55 AM   #3
carlb
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

That is quite possible. The filter is not that old, but a bad tank of gas can kill it fast. I have a new one in the truck to put on. Also there is no CEL and no codes.

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Old 05-18-2007, 11:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

CPS (Crankshaft Position Sensor) it's a temperature sensitive part. Start it and the minute it stalls pull the wires off one of the coil packs. Have someone else try to start the car. You probably won't see a spark. It's a cheap part and not too hard to replace.

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Old 05-18-2007, 02:19 PM   #5
carlb
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

Thank You BarnOwl. I do have spark across the coil pack towers while it is in the no start mode. Therefore the CPS is not the culprit.

Has anyone used a NOID LITE on the injector circuit? I hooked it to #1 injector while it was running and the light stayed lit. But in the no start mode, the light would not come on while I was turning the engine over trying to start it. Good, Bad, or throw it away?

Thanks,
Carlb

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Old 05-18-2007, 10:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

Sounds like you have the why it won't start figured out. The injectors are not pulsing.
Now the hard part is find out why they don't pulse when cranking. Check for power to the injector connectors while cranking, it should be the same colour wire to all four of the injector connectors. If you have power there then you need to check why the PCM controlled ground is not working. The injectors are ground controlled meaning the PCM grounds them to let them work. The four injectors will all have different coloured ground control wires.

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Old 05-19-2007, 07:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

Thanks ssicarman. That's great information. I am going to check that this AM.

Anyone know of a sensor that might be responsible? I am trying to unplug any sensor I find to see if a no start condition occurs.

Carlb

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Old 05-19-2007, 12:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlb View Post
Anyone know of a sensor that might be responsible? I am trying to unplug any sensor I find to see if a no start condition occurs.
Carlb
The CPS is one sensor that will kill the PCM since the lack of crankshaft revolution data is the equivalent of an engine standing still; no revolutions means the PCM will not turn on fuel pump, not enable ignition for spark, and not enable injection pulses to open/close injectors. The CPS is the main sensor without which the engine won't run but there have been posts with intermittent/pending failure of CPS' either when they're at a cold start mode or after the engine's been run for awhile. Basically the CPS electrically opens failing to send continuous data signals while the engine rotates; the PCM absolutely needs CPS data for driving the rest of the electronic engine management system otherwise it will not allow the engine to run, period. Reading past posts will allow you to become familiar with this CPS failure and may not be related to your problem unless your car exhibits the same symptoms, cranks fine but engine won't run then trying later it does for no rhyme or reason.

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Old 05-19-2007, 12:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

Thanks again fdryer. You are correct and I believe that the coil pack test is invalid in this case. I am in the process of changing the CPS, man it's a P.I.A.. Your explaination is accurate and the only one that makes sense. I will advise after the change.

Thanks again,
Carlb

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Old 05-19-2007, 01:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

Actually, the fuel filter suggestion seemed to fit, assuming the pump is fine, as well as BarnOwl's coil pack test being on the money because the CPS is not well understood in its importance and when its intermittent it becomes a devil in disguise to mess with anyone thinking inside the box. BarnOwl's test suggestion is perfect if the CPS has completely failed. Its when anyone posts results of before and after a CPS scenario is when a better picture develops when an intermittent CPS failure becomes more recognized and not confused with the other sensors like the coolant sensor for example. It makes Saturnfans a great place for information exchange, second to none.

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Old 05-19-2007, 02:52 PM   #11
carlb
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Default Re: A Little Help Please

And the winner is.....wait for it.......fdryer!!! Yes it was the CPS. I am a person that thinks in black and white. Either the CPS works or it doesen't. NOT TRUE as pointed out by fdryer. There are other failure modes. In retrospect the coil pack test did not indicate a problem. However, I did not have a pulse at the injectors in failure mode. I was looking for a fuel related sensor that would cause the PCM to shut down the injectors. But after reading fdryer's post it occurred to me that the CPS also provides the pulse signal to the PCM for the injectors. In the future I will check the coil packs and the injector pulse. If either is missing - the CPS is first on the list.

Thank you again fdryer and every one else on the forum,

Carl

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