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Old 04-07-2020, 09:11 AM   #221
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonKastning View Post
....I will try that in the morning. What could cause a 5 psi dip between the last two starts without any configuration changes?

Is it a big deal if I leave the o2 sensors out for now while continuing to trouble shoot? Is your starter fluid test still applicable?
I'm at a loss for the 5 psi drop. I'm more concerned of a dramatic drop off in pressure when the engine stops.

Leaving the O2 sensors removed shouldn't interfere with continued troubleshooting. Your choice to reinstall them or not until this mystery problem is solved.

As far as any vacuum leak, unless you made previous repairs removing the center and side intake air plenums along with other miscellaneous parts, check everything related to the intake air system. This includes the maf sensor, tow clamps securing the maf sensor to the small tube feeding filtered air to the throttle actuator, flex couplers, vacuum canister (black rubber hose from intake manifold and hard blue nylon hose.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg saturn L300 engine.jpg (149.1 KB, 3 views)
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:13 AM   #222
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
We have experienced the ignition lock many times where we had to turn on the key for 10 minutes until the security light stops blinking and only then can we start the car. It always happened to me and never my wife. It became a joke that her car didn't like me. We eventually learned what was going on. When I get into her car, she always had the seat too close to the steering wheel for me to get in and I would literally fight with the steering wheel to get in. The action of turning and pushing on the steering wheel was causing the security system to set ON and lock the engine. It wasn't coincidence, it was real, because I could physically crank on the steering wheel and it would happen every time. I learned I had to get in the car and never touch the wheel and even then I watched for the flashing security light which let me know I screwed up and set off the alarm engine lock. Once the Saturn trained us... it rarely happened again.

If your security light does light up during normal ignition switching.. meaning the light is functional. If it is ever blinking when you try to start the engine, it won't ever start because it has been disabled.

I believe you have a massive vacuum leak... find it.
For what its worth I concur
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:57 AM   #223
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I'm at a loss for the 5 psi drop. I'm more concerned of a dramatic drop off in pressure when the engine stops.

Leaving the O2 sensors removed shouldn't interfere with continued troubleshooting. Your choice to reinstall them or not until this mystery problem is solved.

As far as any vacuum leak, unless you made previous repairs removing the center and side intake air plenums along with other miscellaneous parts, check everything related to the intake air system. This includes the maf sensor, tow clamps securing the maf sensor to the small tube feeding filtered air to the throttle actuator, flex couplers, vacuum canister (black rubber hose from intake manifold and hard blue nylon hose.
fdryer,

I have not made any previous repairs as you mention. I will check the entire air housing and / air intake air system then. Even if I need to remove it and put it back to ensure.

My MAF sensor (the left rubber side of the hose) is bent inwards. If this is cause for replacement it's because I broke it trying to fit the replacement on in 2017.

Also the bottom housing of the air intake system; has a small air hose and I tightened it up with an adjustable metal ring only to bend that hose inwards also. It appears as if when a hose gets bent inwards; it's permanent as I do not know how to remedy.

Are these replaceable parts and if so; is that what needs to be done to ensure no air leaks?
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:58 AM   #224
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrbraner View Post
For what its worth I concur
lbraner,

The massive vacuum leak?
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 10:04 AM   #225
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonKastning View Post
lbraner,

The massive vacuum leak?
Yes a massive vacuum leak
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Old 04-07-2020, 10:28 AM   #226
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

fdryer,

I performed the GM Passlock - wait 10-11 minutes and try to start. Same thing; short run and stop. (about 1-3 seconds).

I don't believe GM Passlock SECURITY light is the problem. Good to know it's 10-11 minutes. I was bypassing this with a jump from another vehicle. (This also bypasses GM Passlock SECURITY).

Just the standard on key over and then it disappears.

Next stop: Remove the MAF + Air Filter Housing and check all those connections. I will take pictures of the damaged hoses and get your opinions on if I should replace them or not.
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Old 04-07-2020, 11:49 AM   #227
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Jumping from another battery does not by-pass the security lock condition. When the security condition is enabled, the fuel injectors are shut off. It doesn't matter where the energy comes from to turn the starter. Nevertheless, it was idea to consider.

Finding a vacuum leak visually is next to impossible unless you find something obvious. I would do the smoke test to isolate where the vacuum leak is. I strongly believe the leak is in around the PVC module because of past pictures you showed had all kinds of oil sludge buildup around that area. And that area should be completely clean with you oil residue.

To get at the PCV module. Remove the airbox and connecting hoses and sensors. Remove one bolt that holds the ERG valve base to the rear mounting bracket. The bolt is toward the front of the car directly above the rear valve cover. Remove this bolt. Remove the ERG valve and disconnect sensor. Disconnect the pipe that feeds the ERG base. Remove the rear bolt from shield on ERG shield, the front shield bolt can be left in place. Then, remove the top intake, disconnect the rubber intake clamps and 4 bolts. The front plastic pieces must be taking out carefully... those hoses are a ***** to disconnect because of limited room. I replaced them with standard hose clamps. Before you lift the upper intake off, you have to disassemble the vacuum throttle from the upper intake on the driver's side. Leave the passenger side intact as it will come out with the ERG base mount and everything else still attached. One more bolt I forgot. There is one bolt on top of the PCV module that holds two metal water lines tight to the valve covers. This bolt must be removed to be able to lift out the upper intake. Also, disconnect the passenger side hoses that connect these two metal water pipes to the engine under the upper intake. Just disconnect where the rubber meets the metal pipes not the engine end. After removing the upper intake, you can see the PCV module on the drivers side of the engine tight up against the engine. There are four bolts holding the PCV module on the engine. But, before you remove it... look to see if either of the two hoses, one large and one small are leaking. You should be able to see evidence of a leak. Black oily carbon crap. Also, it is possible the PCV module itself has opened up. I read that one person had their open. The PVC cover is toward the engine side of the PCV and it is only heat welded in place. It wasn't very hard to open up. With a bright flash light you should be able to see vacuum leak debris in this area if there is a leak. Check the hoses for rips etc... I hope this makes sense. I've taken it apart at least three times in the last month so I basically have it memorized. However, many parts require other parts to cooperate meaning they interleave together... it is most frustrating to disassemble and reassemble because the layers must be taken apart in a specific order or nothing comes apart. Same for assembly. If you want me to tell you the size and types of bolts... I can do that. I took every bolt or group of bolts and put them in separate plastic bags and labeled them to I would be able to reassemble without making any mistakes. It was still difficult. Take your time!
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:39 PM   #228
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
Jumping from another battery does not by-pass the security lock condition. When the security condition is enabled, the fuel injectors are shut off. It doesn't matter where the energy comes from to turn the starter. Nevertheless, it was idea to consider.

Finding a vacuum leak visually is next to impossible unless you find something obvious. I would do the smoke test to isolate where the vacuum leak is. I strongly believe the leak is in around the PVC module because of past pictures you showed had all kinds of oil sludge buildup around that area. And that area should be completely clean with you oil residue.

To get at the PCV module. Remove the airbox and connecting hoses and sensors. Remove one bolt that holds the ERG valve base to the rear mounting bracket. The bolt is toward the front of the car directly above the rear valve cover. Remove this bolt. Remove the ERG valve and disconnect sensor. Disconnect the pipe that feeds the ERG base. Remove the rear bolt from shield on ERG shield, the front shield bolt can be left in place. Then, remove the top intake, disconnect the rubber intake clamps and 4 bolts. The front plastic pieces must be taking out carefully... those hoses are a ***** to disconnect because of limited room. I replaced them with standard hose clamps. Before you lift the upper intake off, you have to disassemble the vacuum throttle from the upper intake on the driver's side. Leave the passenger side intact as it will come out with the ERG base mount and everything else still attached. One more bolt I forgot. There is one bolt on top of the PCV module that holds two metal water lines tight to the valve covers. This bolt must be removed to be able to lift out the upper intake. Also, disconnect the passenger side hoses that connect these two metal water pipes to the engine under the upper intake. Just disconnect where the rubber meets the metal pipes not the engine end. After removing the upper intake, you can see the PCV module on the drivers side of the engine tight up against the engine. There are four bolts holding the PCV module on the engine. But, before you remove it... look to see if either of the two hoses, one large and one small are leaking. You should be able to see evidence of a leak. Black oily carbon crap. Also, it is possible the PCV module itself has opened up. I read that one person had their open. The PVC cover is toward the engine side of the PCV and it is only heat welded in place. It wasn't very hard to open up. With a bright flash light you should be able to see vacuum leak debris in this area if there is a leak. Check the hoses for rips etc... I hope this makes sense. I've taken it apart at least three times in the last month so I basically have it memorized. However, many parts require other parts to cooperate meaning they interleave together... it is most frustrating to disassemble and reassemble because the layers must be taken apart in a specific order or nothing comes apart. Same for assembly. If you want me to tell you the size and types of bolts... I can do that. I took every bolt or group of bolts and put them in separate plastic bags and labeled them to I would be able to reassemble without making any mistakes. It was still difficult. Take your time!
Rj,

Thank you for that write-up. I do not mind disassembling; I just do not know the names of the parts you are describing just yet.

I did start with the air filter system and looked toward what I believe is what you are trying to focus my attention on (the oil sludge central problem).

The hoses were/are clogged with major oil sludge.

Read my updates to see what I discovered. I used pipe cleaners as a quick think to clean as much out as possible before trying to figure out how to find new parts. (I don't know where to get the MAF sensor hoses for each side to remedy the broken/deformed plastic [I am thinking local Pick N Pull; just don't know if I have to strictly pull from L300's / LW300's or if other Saturn Models will suffice for these parts].

The small hose on the left of that big round hose (from earlier conversations about clogging it); this was before I had the nerve to start doing things I have no idea what I am doing and tools to supplement those things.

It was also minor clogged; I used a pipe cleaner and pushed it all the way back in and out and it seemed to do the trick.

The hose on the right (the larger one); this one was extremely full of oil sludge; and used up the majority of my pipe cleaners in an effort to clean / de-clog. I have bent the hose from the L shape to a straight arrow the best I could while cleaning using bent pipe cleaners.

This proved extremely useful in removing tons of oil sludge; however I don't believe this cleaned the entire hose. The hose leads up to the this black rectangular shape with Torx #10 on them (2 x) ...

What is this part name? What does it do? At this point; I feel as If I should be going through all these parts; cleaning them out and finding replacement parts. (Hoses to the different engine parts).

Every part of the engine that I am looking at where a hose is leading in. Is full of oil.
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:41 PM   #229
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 1: Bent / Deformed MAF Sensor

Part 1/2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_094935.jpg (118.1 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_094939.jpg (121.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_095148.jpg (110.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_20200407_095151.jpg (84.4 KB, 3 views)
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:42 PM   #230
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 1: Bent / Deformed MAF Sensor

Part 2/2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_095204.jpg (91.4 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_095211.jpg (88.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_095215.jpg (70.5 KB, 2 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:44 PM   #231
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 2: Bent Hose Part (Beneath Air Filter Housing)

Part 1/2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_094947.jpg (86.7 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_094952.jpg (113.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_094954.jpg (109.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_20200407_095759.jpg (104.0 KB, 2 views)
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:45 PM   #232
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 2: Bent Hose Part (Beneath Air Filter Housing)

Part 2/2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_095842.jpg (104.7 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_095846.jpg (90.2 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_095852.jpg (76.4 KB, 2 views)
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:47 PM   #233
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 3: Oil Sludge - Majorly Plugged Tube (L tube) + Left one was also clogged with some minor sludge.

Part 1/1
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_100115.jpg (69.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_100120.jpg (74.3 KB, 3 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:48 PM   #234
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 1: Oil Sludge - Majorly Plugged Tube (L tube) + Cleaned / Partially cleaned with lots of pipe cleaners (quick thinking).

Part 1/4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_100130.jpg (111.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_100148.jpg (78.6 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_100152.jpg (76.6 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_20200407_100247.jpg (100.6 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 5_cropped_20200407_100255.jpg (110.5 KB, 2 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:49 PM   #235
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 2: Oil Sludge - Majorly Plugged Tube (L tube) + Cleaned / Partially cleaned with lots of pipe cleaners (quick thinking).

Part 2/4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_100309.jpg (186.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_101501.jpg (94.1 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_200200407_101519.jpg (98.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 5_cropped_20200407_101523.jpg (70.8 KB, 3 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:50 PM   #236
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 3: Oil Sludge - Majorly Plugged Tube (L tube) + Cleaned / Partially cleaned with lots of pipe cleaners (quick thinking).

Part 3/4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_101645.jpg (89.7 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_101702.jpg (93.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_101714.jpg (67.4 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_20200407_102410.jpg (88.3 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 5_cropped_20200407_102422.jpg (100.1 KB, 1 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:52 PM   #237
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Update: 04/07/2020

Part 4: Oil Sludge - Majorly Plugged Tube (L tube) + Cleaned / Partially cleaned with lots of pipe cleaners (quick thinking).

Part 4/4
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_104418.jpg (204.6 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_104423.jpg (90.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_104430.jpg (184.3 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_20200407_104436.jpg (127.0 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 5_cropped_20200407_104440.jpg (168.9 KB, 2 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 03:55 PM   #238
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

What is this blackbox called?

It has a hose on the left side and the right side. The left side is the one that I was de-clogging with pipe cleaners.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_115606.jpg (112.6 KB, 2 views)
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Old 04-07-2020, 03:59 PM   #239
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

What is this hose (the smaller one on the left to the L shaped one) next to the big metal round thing that keeps getting oil sludge in it. (There were small bits splattered since the last time I cleaned it up).

I try my best to traceroute the hose.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_cropped_20200407_115613.jpg (108.8 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2_cropped_20200407_115625.jpg (122.4 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg 3_cropped_20200407_115628.jpg (114.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg 4_cropped_20200407_115634.jpg (71.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg 5_cropped_20200407_115643.jpg (83.1 KB, 0 views)
...
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Old 04-07-2020, 04:03 PM   #240
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2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Won't stay running after a breakdown and bad...

Okay, making progress. The small tube on the left of the inlet to the upper intake and the large tube on the right which is completely plugged with gunk... both these hoses connect to the PCV module which I told you should be checked pages ago. I am certain the entire PVC module is full of crap and the cover could likely be blown off. The engine back pressure with no vent to equalized the pressure is what was forcing oil out the gaskets. Same as my wife's L300. You'll need to disassemble the upper intake as I mentioned in the last post in this thread to get to the PCV module. I can help you with more details. If you have a service manual, you should be able to find the parts. It's not difficult, just extremely confusing as everything is interleaved on top of everything else.

All the airbox stuff looked fine and you really didn't need to worry about that pushed in section, just push it back out without cracking any of the plastic. You can't have any holes in that section or it will cause the engine to run poorly if at all.

Don't bother wasting time cleaning the exit of the large pipe because if it is that full of junk at the end... the plastic piece that goes between two of the same size hoses will be full of crap that needs to be cleaned outside the car. Same with the PCV module. it is likely packed full of crap.

Your engine is not running because it can't breathe and somewhere is a large vacuum leak causing the engine to die at idle. Making progress!
Rj 2000 LS2 is offline  
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