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Old 01-28-2011, 08:53 PM   #1
puer liber
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1999 SL2
Default Clacking EGR

Hi Folks, prepare for a long post.

I recently pulled the EGR from my 99 SL2 for a second, more aggressive cleaning since cleaning it about 40K ago. The cleaning was part of a series of measures to try to isolate some high idle and occassional jerking. I also ran the engine for a moment with the EGR off. Ever since putting the EGR back on, it has been making a loud clacking and the engine has been running considerably rougher, esp. when cold. I just ran the engine again with the EGR blocked off with quarters, and it still makes this noise. The noise does not seem to be coming from the no. 4 valves. Wolfman posted that he has never heard an EGR make a clicking sound. Any ideas?

Here is a description of the problems I have been trying to solve: Occassional stumbling and jerking with with a slight increase in power when after the stumbling goes away. Sometimes I drive 150 mi. or so without it happening, sometimes the symptom pops up every 10 mi. or so. Its not like the typical surge connected with the dirty EGR--more like the jerking from loose motor mounts or letting the clutch out too fast. It varies in severity--recently I got just one abrupt, unusually hard jerk and that was it. My assumption has always been a vacuum leak, and the problem may have cropped up after I took the manifold out for cleaning to clear an air injection code. Before taking the EGR off, I noticed that the manifold bolts were pretty loose. I had also not changed the flange and manifold gaskets as these seemed perfectly fine. Since the EGR cleaning I have gone back and replaced these, tightening the manifold-engine bolts. I have not yet banged on the CAT to see if this is the problem--my symptoms do seem like the "clogged CAT" symptoms I have read about.

I have checked the fuel pump relay and it seems to be fine, my best guess, if the problem has not already been solved by the bolt tightening and new gaskets, is that it is the fuel pressure sensor. I have not driven it since I made these repairs. I changed the filter at about 120k and it is now at 182k.

The high idle is a mystery and I'm not sure it is connected to the shaking problem. The high idle goes away when I turn off the ignition--yet I just replaced the TPS a few months ago. I also cleaned the idle air pintle and the throttle body gets a regular cleaning. The ECTS connector checks out, the spark plugs look fine and the wires are about 10K old.

I also get the following codes, which come and go even less regularly than the high idle: p0122, 0134, 0130, 0410. The SES tends to come and go every 10miles and then stay off for two or three hundred miles.

Any suggestions, starting with the mystery EGR sound, would be appreciated.
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Old 01-29-2011, 05:43 AM   #2
Aysle
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1999 SL2
Default Re: Clacking EGR

From the 98 FSM here is what it says about the codes you have, the descriptions come out of an engine one year before and there was a redesign between 98/99 but Im hoping the codes still work out the same... hopefully someone else can confirm.



P0122
The throttle position (TP) sensor is a variable resistor that is connected to a 5 volt reference source, a ground, and an input signal at the PCM. When the throttle blade is closed, the sensor input voltage will be low and increase as the throttle is opened. The TP sensor is mounted on the throttle body and connected to the throttle shaft which is controlled by accelerator movement.
Conditions for Setting the DTC

DTC P0122 will set if the TP sensor voltage is less than 0.2 volts:

The engine is running.
No other TP sensor DTCs have been set.

Diagnostic Aids

Check the tightness of the female terminal grip with a spare male terminal.

Normal voltage readings should vary smoothly from 0.2-4.9 volts as the throttle is moved from closed to the wide open position.


P0134
The oxygen sensor (O2S) consists of a zirconia electrolyte between 2 platinum plates. When the sensor reaches approximately 318C (600F), it becomes an electrical source that responds to the oxygen content in the exhaust. The PCM produces a bias voltage of approximately 470 millivolts on the oxygen sensor circuit. When the sensor is cold, its internal resistance is extremely high, therefore the PCM recognizes the bias as an open circuit. As the sensor warms up, the internal resistance decreases. When the sensor reaches approximately 318C (600F), it starts producing a voltage based on the oxygen content in the exhaust stream. This voltage is used by the PCM to determine a rich or lean signal and adjust the fuel mixture accordingly.
Conditions for Setting the DTC

Important

The O2S signal is continuously checked once the following conditions have been met.

DTC P0134 will set if the O2S voltage is inactive, not reading outside 391-491 mV, for 90 seconds when:

The engine is at normal operating temperature and the ECT reads over 60C (140F).
The engine has been running at least 1 minute.
The TP sensor reads over 65 percent an the engine is off idle.
No other engine sensor or misfire DTCs have been set.
The commanded A/F ratio is approximately 14.7:1.

Diagnostic Aids

The PCM will no go into closed loop if a DTC P0134 has failed during the current ignition cycle.

Normal scan tool reading in closed loop will show the oxygen sensor voltage varying between 10-999 mV.

DTC P0134 can set or cause false oxygen sensor readings if the oxygen sensor ground becomes loose or corroded. Refer to PCM and Engine Grounds.


P0130
DTC P0130 determines if the oxygen sensor (O2S) is fluctuating properly. Under certain operating conditions, the O2S voltage should consistently fluctuate over 600 mv and under 300 mv. DTC P0134 tests that the O2S voltage is fluctuating outside the inactive range (391-491 mv), however the O2S output is not used for fuel control until it is consistently fluctuating outside a larger range (300-600 mv). DTC P0130 tests that under certain conditions, the O2S voltage fluctuates outside the larger range. If under certain conditions, the O2S voltage is not fluctuating over 600 mv and under 300 mv, DTC P0130 will set.
Conditions for Setting the DTC

DTC P0130 will set if the O2S voltage is not fluctuating outside 300-600 mv for 50 seconds when:

The TP is greater than 6 percent.
The engine is at operating temperature.
The engine is in closed loop.

Diagnostic Aids

The cause is a faulty or contaminated sensor.

To correct the condition, replace the front oxygen sensor (O2S).


P0410
DTC P0410 determines if the air pump system is operating properly. During air pump operation, the PCM monitors the oxygen sensor output. The additional air pumped into the exhaust manifold causes the oxygen sensor to indicate a lean condition in a properly operating system. If the oxygen sensor does not indicate a lean condition for a fixed amount of time, it will fail the DTC P0410 diagnostic test.
Conditions for Setting the DTC

DTC P0410 will set when:

The oxygen sensor does not indicate a lean condition during air pump operation.
No MAP, TP, EGR, O2S, misfire, or fuel trip DTCs are set.

The diagnostic for DTC P0410 will only run when the air pump is ON. If the air pump runs only for a short period of time, the DTC P0410 diagnostic test may not run.
Diagnostic Aids

Us the scan tool air pump Special Test to verify if a problem exists. The Special Test turns ON the air pump for 30 seconds and forces the DTC P0410 diagnostic test to run.


--

With all the codes the root cause seems to be the O2 sensor, I think based on the descriptions, but Im not experienced enough to say that for sure. Would say test the O2 sensor readings or wait for one of the experts here.

As for the clacking EGR... no idea there... I know on my 99 EGR it took 3 deep cleanings to get it working right again... About 3/4s of a can of carb cleaner and 2 tooth brushes + soakings.
...
99 SL2 with 2000 motor using 99 intake,exhaust manifolds & EGR valve
J&C Frankenstein Head Replacement
New Cloyes Timing, Upper Engine Mount, Water Pump, Idler Pulley, Fel-Pro Gaskets/Bolts

Last edited by Aysle; 01-29-2011 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:25 AM   #3
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Default Re: Clacking EGR

Are you sure the egr valve is making the loud clacking noise when it may be from something else? To isloate it better would require either disconnecting the electrical connection to it while idling or driving briefly (expect the SES indicator to turn on); when its supposedly clicking loudly is the best time to disconnect the power/signal connector for a before and after comparison.

The error codes may be related but can also be caused by old worn out parts so a base reference of running conditions needs to be answered.

1-Has the original faulty plastic coolant sensor ever been replaced? Do it no matter if the plastic one isn't cracked. Brass is the one to use (flat nosed).

2-Is the temperature gauge needle hovering over the 1/4/1st tick mark? Yes, replace the t-stat with a new 195F one to braing operating temps back up (needle between the 1/4 and 1/2 tick marks (3/8ths). This in combination will bring temps up to operating range for better fuel mileage as well as better emissions control. Higher idling is attributed to one or both items out of spec as the engine is run richer. This can also affect O2 sensor operation by not reaching operating temps in time. The sooner the engine rises to the correct operating temps (coolant sensor and t-stat determine this) the sooner the O2 sensor reaches operating temps. Each are directly related to the other and depend on the correct engine operating temperatures.

The original faulty coolant sensors and old worn out t-stat tends to run the engine rich at higher idle speed. O2 sensor operation is delayed as well as some cars not meeting their internal readiness monitors and failing state emissions inspection. All due to a colder running engine.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:34 PM   #4
puer liber
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Default Re: Clacking EGR

It was, in fact the EGR. I probed around numerous times and disconnected it. I had forgotten to replace the gasket, and it was probably on too loose. The old gasket showed a lot of carbon spitting out...

Today after replacing the gasket, and with new exh. manifold and flange gaskets AND TIGHTENED BOLTS!!! The car is running great, no more clacking and the SES light even turned out. As I said, symptoms and light are sporadic, so I am hoping they will not return.


The ECTS was changed and someone replaced the connector at some point. At any rate, it checks out visually and for reference voltage. The only other thing I can do for the ECTS is measure the return voltage at PCM. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that. I changed the t-stat a while ago and the guage reads at 3/8 warm.

Thanks for the reply--I was really in a frenzy--thanks for replying to my crazed post. all this may have been due to some loose bolts and not replacing the ex. manifold gasket! i guess one has to recheck and tighten certain bolts after driving around. I tend not to tighten bolts much on gasketed items--the 150lb. or so torque that it calls for is hard to measure--even if I could get my torque wrench in there. This time I erred on the side of too tight.
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Clacking EGR

Quote:
Originally Posted by puer liber View Post
I tend not to tighten bolts much on gasketed items--the 150lb. or so torque that it calls for is hard to measure--even if I could get my torque wrench in there. This time I erred on the side of too tight.
150lb!?! Whoa!

Tighten the EGR Valve-to-Head bolts to 25 Nm (19 lb ft).
Tighten Exhaust Manifold-to-Head (L24) 22 Nm (16 lbs ft).
Tighten Exhaust Pipe-to-Manifold 31 Nm (23 lbs ft)
...
1997 - SL2, barebones, 161k, Auto - Rebuild complete and.. burnt a valve 20k later Arrgh!
Purchased 114k 10/07
Added OEM CC
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: Clacking EGR

Wheel nuts take about 90ft-lbs so if you've been rotating tires you know how much torque that feels like. 150ft-lbs(?) is quite a bit more so use your judgement. All's well that ends well.
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Old 02-05-2011, 09:39 AM   #7
puer liber
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Default Re: Clacking EGR

ER...I meant or so 150 INCHES...I think the actual spec is something like 130 INCHES
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