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Old 08-02-2016, 11:26 PM   #1
Vladymere
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Default Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Charlie,

I posted a Vue question and plea for assistance in the General Saturn Discussion forum. I have been told that I should have posted my request in the Vue section.

I would like to repost my request in the Vue forum but am unable to. The box at the bottom left of the page shows that I have no permissions to post.

Have I been banned from posting for my initial error?

Thank you,

Vlad

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Old 08-03-2016, 09:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Vlad - go to your very first post and 'copy' everything there. Then click on this link . . .
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=35

Then click on the New Thread button on the left and 'paste' your first thread in there. Use the same title you have here. You'll see more traffic in this section.

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Old 08-03-2016, 11:12 AM   #3
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Vladymere ... I read your original post.

Did new throttle body come with TAC module attached or did you transfer from old TB?

I've attached two FSM extracts - 3.6 TAC code description and wiring diagram.

Appears to be a decent fault isolation procedure in the code description.

My apologies if this information duplicates something you already have.

Repost or send PM if you need any other docs addressed in these two.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 08 Vue - TAC Diag.jpg (170.5 KB, 9 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 08 Vue - 3.6 P0122 - P2135.pdf (29.5 KB, 14 views)

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Old 08-03-2016, 11:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

I'll attach end-view of throttle body TAC connector to help ID pins and function.

It'll help during continuity testing.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TAC End View.jpg (86.1 KB, 8 views)

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Old 08-03-2016, 08:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

far2grumpy,

Thanks for posting this information. I will run through the diagnostics that you have provided and let you know what I come up with.

I have ordered an electrical connector for the throttle body connection to replace the existing one. It should arrive tomorrow or Friday.

Vlad

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Old 08-11-2016, 08:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

far2grumpy, all,

I followed through the diagnostic procedures provide me by far2grumpy and came to the conclusion that the new throttle body I installed was an out of box failure.

I returned the replacement throttle body to my auto parts store whom replaced it with another. This new one, when examined at the store, was found to have actually been mounted to a vehicle at one time. I believe somebody bought it, installed it found it did not resolve their problem and returned it to the store, not the store I bought it from as it was a replacement at the store for the one removed from their inventory when I made my purchase.

The second throttle body replacement did not resolve my problem.

Having received the throttle body harness connector I went ahead and replaced it hoping that it would correct the issue. It did not.

The issue has changed in that the only error code now being thrown is the P0122 Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Low Input.

Following through the circuit system testing procedures (my findings in bold):

1. Ignition OFF, disconnect the harness connector at the throttle body.
Done.

2. Ignition OFF for 90 seconds, test for less than 5 ohms between the low reference circuit terminal C and ground. If greater than 5 ohms, test the low reference circuit for an open/high resistance. If the circuit tests normal, replace the ECM.
0.4 ohms.

3. Ignition ON, test for 4.8-5.2 volts between 5-volt reference circuit terminal E and ground. If less than 4.8 volts, test 5-volt reference circuit for a short to ground or an open/high resistance. If the circuit tests normal,
replace the ECM. If greater than 5.2 volts, test the 5-volt reference circuit for a short to voltage. If the circuit tests normal, replace the ECM.
5.05 volts DC.

4. Verify the scan tool TP sensor 1 voltage is less than 0.1 volt. If greater than 0.1 volt, test the signal circuit terminal D for a short to voltage. If the circuit tests normal, replace the ECM.
Neither my Actron scan tool or my OBD Auto Doctor scan software report this value as a voltage.

5. Verify the scan tool TP sensor 2 voltage is greater than 4.8 volts. If less than 4.8 volts, test the signal circuit for a short to ground. If the circuit tests normal, replace the ECM.
Again, Neither my Actron scan tool or my OBD Auto Doctor scan software report this value as a voltage.

6. Install a 3A fused jumper wire between the signal circuit terminal D and the 5-volt reference circuit terminal E of the TP sensor 1. Verify the TP sensor 1 voltage is greater than 4.8 volts. If less than 4.8 volts, test the TP sensor 1 signal circuit for a short to ground or an open/high resistance. If the circuit tests normal, replace the ECM.
5.05 volts DC.

7. Install a 3A fused jumper wire between the signal circuit terminal F and the low reference circuit terminal C of the TP sensor 2. Verify that the TP sensor 2 voltage is less than 0.1 volt. If greater than 0.1 volt, test the TP sensor 2 signal circuit for a short to voltage or an open/high resistance. If the circuit tests normal, replace the ECM.
0.27 volts DC.

8. Ignition OFF for 90 seconds, disconnect the harness connector at the ECM.
Done

9. Test for less than 5 ohms of resistance on all TP sensor circuits between the following terminals:
ECM X2 signal circuit terminal 64 and the throttle body connector terminal D
ECM X2 signal circuit terminal 66 and the throttle body connector terminal F
ECM X2 5-volt reference circuit terminal 44 and the throttle body connector terminal E
If greater than 5 ohms, repair the affected circuit for open/high resistance.
All tested at 0.4 ohms. I also tested circuits A to ECM X2 terminal 12, B to ECM X2 terminal 11 and C to ECM X2 terminal 29. These also tested at 0.4 ohms each.

10. Test for infinite resistance between TP sensor 1 signal circuit terminal D and TP sensor 2 signal circuit terminal F. If less than infinite resistance, repair the short between TP sensor 1 signal circuit and TP sensor 2 signal circuit.
Infinite resistance found.

11. If all circuits test normal, replace the throttle body.

Attached are photos of the OBD Auto Doctor graphs showing the Relative Throttle Position %, the Absolute Throttle Position %, Absolute Throttle Position B % and Commanded Throttle Actuator Control %.

So what do I do now? Is the second replacement throttle body and OBF also? Is my ECM bad? I’m stumped.

Thanks for any help offered.

Vlad
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Key On-Engine Off.JPG (94.5 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg Start Up.JPG (110.0 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg After a few minutes running.JPG (110.1 KB, 2 views)

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Old 08-11-2016, 10:21 AM   #7
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

I missed the original post.. What is the problem?

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Originally had 2.2L and Auto trans.

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Old 08-11-2016, 11:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

waiter21,

Here is a link to my original posting. (Won't let me post link.)

Basically after 2/5 to 3 minutes warmup it would start idling very rough and loping, throwing codes, P0120, P0122, P0390 and P2135. I figure the problems starts when the running goes from ECU closed loop operation to
ECU open loop operation.

I changed the throttle body and the codes changed to P0122 and P2135.

At this point the throttle body has been changed twice (and both may be obf), replaced the accelerator pedal connector, replaced the throttle body connector and tried but did not replace a new accelerator pedal.

I am at this point getting a P0122 code. Car runs in reduced power mode.

I don't know what to do next. Another throttle body? Buy a refurbished ECU and then take it to a dealer to have the replacement ECU flashed as they have to be in the car to be flashed?

Vlad

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Old 08-11-2016, 12:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladymere View Post
Here is a link to my original posting.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=223009

Btw Vlad - you might want to add the year and engine into your profile.

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Old 08-11-2016, 01:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Thank you for posting the link to the original posting Chazberry.

I updated my profile also.

Vlad

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Old 08-11-2016, 01:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Vladymere, did you try observing throttle plate movement with someone pressing and releasing the gas pedal? Whether mechanically or electronically operated, throttle plate movement is supposed to open and close in direct proportion to pedal travel. What do you see after ignition is turned on?

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Old 08-11-2016, 03:24 PM   #12
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

fdryer,

I did not visually observe the throttle plate move but I no it is as I was able to drive the vehicle but acceleration is not as it should be as it is in a limited power mode. Acceleration is smooth as is engine idle and running.

If it would help identify the problem I can scan/graph those same sensors while driving and present the photos here.

Thank you for the suggestion of observing the throttle plate though.

Vlad

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Old 08-11-2016, 11:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

Throttle blade will most likely move normally with engine off.

Failing steps 4 and 5 points toward ECM.

Can your test setup monitor live TP Sensor voltages?

Ignition on - engine Off - TP1 should vary between 4.75 - 0.35 volts with gas pedal input.

At same time TP2 voltages should vary between 0.25 - 4.59 with pedal input.

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Old 08-12-2016, 06:26 AM   #14
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

far2grumpy,

Thank you for again weighing in.

No, neither my Actron hand held code reader or my OBD Auto Doctor laptop software will present the TP1 and TP2 sensor inputs as voltage values, only percentages.

And that is my problem with the current diagnostics that you graciously provided. I bypassed two steps in the decision tree and reached the endpoint without a valid conclusion.

I can probe the actual sensor outputs with a DVM and see if the fall within the specified parameters but actual voltages and ECU interpreted voltages may be significantly different and the root of my issue.

Is there an alternative to this step? Are you aware of a handheld code reader or laptop software that DIY can afford that will provide the ECU TP sensor voltages?

far2grumpy, and others, thank you for your help.

Vlad

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Old 08-12-2016, 11:01 AM   #15
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

I e-mailed support for OBD Auto Doctor software to see if they had software that would let me read the two throttle body sensor outputs in volts. They did not but did respond:
Okey, those two have the exactly same definition:
"Absolute throttle position (not “relative” or “learned” throttle
position) shall be displayed as a normalized value, scaled from 0 to
100 %. For example, if a 0 to 5.0 volt sensor is used (uses a 5.0 volt
reference voltage), and the closed throttle position is at 1.0 volts,
TP shall display (1.0 / 5.0) = 20 % at closed throttle and 50 % at 2.5
volts. Throttle position at idle will usually indicate greater than 0
%, and throttle position at wide open throttle will usually indicate
less than 100 %.

Regarding diagnostic tests 4 and 5:
Based on this info then the Key ON-Engine Off photo above is showing the Absolute Throttle Position at 5VDC or just under and the Absolute Throttle Position Sensor B at a shade over 1.5VDC.
Assuming that Absolute Throttle Position is TP Sensor 2 then that valus is good.
Assuming that Absolute Throttle Position B is TP Sensor 1 then tat value is bad and I need a new ECU.

Any one concur or dissent from these thoughts?

Thank you,

Vlad

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Old 08-12-2016, 11:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

EDIT ... I posted the following and then noted your post 15 ... the ECM appears to be causing P0122.

You passed steps 6 and 7 which indicate the throttle body (TB) sensor hardware is OK with throttle body blade at rest.

However, I'd do additional test for both TP 1 (step 6) and TP 2 (step 7) by leaving test voltage and leads connected while moving TB blade from close to open while monitoring meter and looking for any sudden meter movement indicating a bad spot on variable resistance device.

The TB to ECM wiring is OK as you passed step 9.

I have a digital meter with pin-point leads which I use to pierce insulation to probe wires to make circuit measurements. I'd expect to see the listed voltages if TB and ECM were operating OK since digital meter does not load circuit.

I'd probably also do a good visual of area around the active TAC ECM contacts (29, 44, 64 and 66) at connector X2 to eliminate possibility of bent pins or other debris making contact with surrounding contacts.

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Old 08-12-2016, 11:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

far2grumpy,

I may have been doing tests 6 and 7 incorrectly based on your last post.

I took a 3A fused wire, disconnected the throttle body connector from the throttle body and plugged the fused wire into the connector harness terminals D and E with the connector off the throttle body. I then checked the voltage at terminal E. I believed this test was to see if the ECU E circuit was unnaturally sinking the reference voltage.

I did the same thing in essence for test 7 but connected the fused wire between terminals C and D believing this test was to see if voltage was unnaturally being applied to the ECU D circuit.

Was this incorrect?

Let me add also that in the Key On/Engine Off I can delete the P0122 code, then refresh the code reading and the code is back without having moved the accelerator, throttle blade or turning the key off and then on. This makes me think that the the TP1 Sensor voltage being at 1.5VDC instead of 0.1VDC is throwing the code as soon as the key is turned on and can't be cleared.

This problem started about a week after the alternator failed and the vehicle was driven until the battery voltage decayed to the point that the vehicle could not longer run. I don't know if this could have caused an issue with the ECU or not. Perhaps the ECU only needs to be reflashed?

Vlad

Last edited by Vladymere; 08-12-2016 at 12:00 PM..

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Old 08-12-2016, 12:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

I believe those steps applied to testing throttle body.

I don't have schematic for ECM and can't be certain voltage on those contacts did harm.

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Old 08-13-2016, 01:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

I am convinced that the ECU is bad. I put my lap top back on the OBDII connector and observed the Absolute Throttle Position sensor and Absolute Throttle Position B sensor.

When manually operating the throttle plate only the Absolute Throttle Position B sensor operated. When I put an ohm meter across the TP1 Sensor and the TP2 Sensor on the throttle body both sensors changed state when manually operating the throttle plate.

I again verified that each of the throttle body harness wires measured "short" between the throttle body connector and the ECU X2 connector.

I will order an ECU and after proper installation report back on this thread as to the results.

I will open another thread asking the requirements for replacing the ECU.

Thanks to all that helped.

Vlad

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Old 08-19-2016, 02:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Bad ECU or OBF Replacement Throttle Body

I checked the vehicle again today. Put a DVM on the two sensor output signals to the ECU. Manually rotating the throttle plate caused both sensors to change voltages smoothly as they should. On my laptop scan tool software the signal graphs also moved smoothly as they should.

When I start the vehicle up it runs fine until the ECU leaves closed loop operation and enters open loop operation then it runs like crap.

I received the ECU I ordered off of ebay. It is from a 2008 Chevy Malibu but has the same part number, service number and broadcast code as the one from my daughter's 2008 Saturn Vue Redline. Cross reference showed that it was a match for the Saturn.

I tried to install it but I can't do anything with it so I took it to the local Buick/GMC dealership. They said that they can get to it Tuesday and that it will run $115.

I'll let you know what happens.

Vlad

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