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Old 11-01-2019, 03:03 PM   #1
tripletg
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Dizzy Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

I have a 96 SW with 115k. I bought it at 97k and did all the normal high mileage fixes and maintenance. In particular I replaced the valve body around 10k miles ago as soon as a shift slam issue cropped up. I maybe put 10 miles on the taat when it started slamming originally.

Starting this summer.. every once in a while the car will slam into all gears like the line pressure solenoid has gone bad. This happens right after the car has started on the first shift. A restart will fix it after its warmed up a variable amount. Once I restart it, the car shifts like butter. There is also no delay in engaging reverse after the restart.

Recently it has started going stretches where I have do this every-time the car is cold. My first guess at this point is the LP solenoid is just starting to go? It tests at 4.7 ohm but from what I understand it could still be on its way.

I did change the alternator and battery last month.. I didn't see any change to the slam behavior but the alternator definitely did not have a lot of life left in it. I also changed the tts but there was already a brass tipped one in there. BTW The bus plate connection with the 7mm bolt on top looks clean inside with no burnt connectors.

The biggest thing that is making me scratch my head..besides it being an intermittent Taat problem is the restart thing. No amount of restarting would fix the issue when it was originally slamming from what I can remember.

Before I go swapping solenoids, I am wondering if if there might be another electric taat gremlin to look for? Could the alternator starting to go have put some extra stress on something? It feels like something is just off a spec hence its only intermittent. Thanks in advance for any ideas! This car would be in a JY and I would be a lot poorer if it wasn't for this forum

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Old 11-02-2019, 07:54 AM   #2
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Sounds like you may need to perform a transmission relearn or you have a sticking pressure regulator valve.

Who did you buy the VB from?

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

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Old 11-02-2019, 12:36 PM   #3
tripletg
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

I can post links yet but do a google search for. TAAT-SATURN-VALVE-BODY-REMAN-SONNAX-UPDATED-93-96-FIBER-GASKET-TRANSMISSION- and the first ebay hit is it.

I'm definitely going to try another re-learn ty for the suggestion!

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Old 11-04-2019, 07:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Two things, make sure the connector on top of the transaxle is not loose. 2nd, the solenoids can come apart and still show the correct coil resistance. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj9pKsT8lDg See video on an issue I had with one.

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Old 11-04-2019, 07:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripletg View Post
.....I'm definitely going to try another re-learn ty for the suggestion!
Unless someone posts actual reprints from a service manual, there isn't any xmission relearn procedure. Electronically controlled xmissions like yours, the L-series, Ions, Auras and other manufacturers with similar electronics controlling automatics, all adjust 'on the fly'. That is meant to describe every correctly working sensor sending signals to the pcm (S-series cars only have one combination engine and xmission computer) will shift according to programmed software accounting for every possible scenario including wear and tear of clutch packs in automatics. If a sensor or sensors and/or alternator output doesn't send correct signals or outputs below 13 volts, the pcm may alter shift points. Corroded wiring between pcm and valve body where the pcm commands shifts may be an issue. The pcm itself may be an issue too as the S-series gets older - electronics, especially the power transistors driving the pcm modulated xmission solenoids can wear out. There's only so many cycles of switching transistors before one fails. This would be the last stage of pcm operation related to automatics. Many other things need to be eliminated before pcm xmission control failure rears its head. And if you had GMs scantool, you'd have inside info on how to determine if the pcm, individual valve body solenoids or sensors are faulty. Then you'd have to be familiar with deeper understanding of interpreting advanced diagnosing/troubleshooting - at dealer level experience.

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Old 11-05-2019, 09:00 PM   #6
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Unless someone posts actual reprints from a service manual, there isn't any xmission relearn procedure. Electronically controlled xmissions like yours, the L-series, Ions, Auras and other manufacturers with similar electronics controlling automatics, all adjust 'on the fly'. That is meant to describe every correctly working sensor sending signals to the pcm (S-series cars only have one combination engine and xmission computer) will shift according to programmed software accounting for every possible scenario including wear and tear of clutch packs in automatics. If a sensor or sensors and/or alternator output doesn't send correct signals or outputs below 13 volts, the pcm may alter shift points. Corroded wiring between pcm and valve body where the pcm commands shifts may be an issue. The pcm itself may be an issue too as the S-series gets older - electronics, especially the power transistors driving the pcm modulated xmission solenoids can wear out. There's only so many cycles of switching transistors before one fails. This would be the last stage of pcm operation related to automatics. Many other things need to be eliminated before pcm xmission control failure rears its head. And if you had GMs scantool, you'd have inside info on how to determine if the pcm, individual valve body solenoids or sensors are faulty. Then you'd have to be familiar with deeper understanding of interpreting advanced diagnosing/troubleshooting - at dealer level experience.
Sorry but solid state devices like transistors, diodes, etc do not wear out. They can switch billions of times. They can be damaged or destroyed by over voltage, current, heat, water, cold etc. The PCM in the S series is extremely reliable. What does have an age limit is an electrolytic capacitor so any of those in the PCM would go first. I currently work with lasers that fire 200 billion times in 1 second. They run 24/7 365 days a year. They are driven and biased by integrated circuits.

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Old 11-05-2019, 09:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Well, evidence over the years do show electronics 'wearing out' from heat, cold and vibration. If this wasn't true then please explain why my crank sensor as well as many others here in different models failed intermittently. And I do mean intermittently - engine heat cycling affecting it in the characteristic hot engine random die off until cooling off when the crank sensor operates again. This cycle repeats until its determined the sensor is the fault and not the ecm, injectors, fuel pump or ignition system for spark.

Another example is a pcm in the S-series failing. A very knowledgeable member here went thru every sensor to narrow down a persistent pcm that refused to leave open loop mode and enter closed loop mode. All sensors operated as designed but the pcm wouldn't enter closed loop mode. A used pcm was put in and closed loop mode occured after the usual engine warm up. The pcm failed. This member was so confident that once the pcm was determined faulty, replaced and ran successfully, he shipped his Saturn overseas to Europe. We never heard from him again.

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Old 11-06-2019, 02:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gveinot View Post
Two things, make sure the connector on top of the transaxle is not loose. 2nd, the solenoids can come apart and still show the correct coil resistance. See See video on an issue I had with one.
That bus plate connector on top of the taat feels solid. Although, I don't remember the correct torque for the 7mm? bolt on it. Inside is surprisingly new looking as well. All the contact points are clean etc.

I will be sure to check the LP solenoid, and the rest for that matter, for that condition!! TY so much for the suggestions.

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Old 11-06-2019, 02:40 AM   #9
tripletg
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Unless someone posts actual reprints from a service manual, there isn't any xmission relearn procedure. Electronically controlled xmissions like yours, the L-series, Ions, Auras and other manufacturers with similar electronics controlling automatics, all adjust 'on the fly'. That is meant to describe every correctly working sensor sending signals to the pcm (S-series cars only have one combination engine and xmission computer) will shift according to programmed software accounting for every possible scenario including wear and tear of clutch packs in automatics. If a sensor or sensors and/or alternator output doesn't send correct signals or outputs below 13 volts, the pcm may alter shift points. Corroded wiring between pcm and valve body where the pcm commands shifts may be an issue. The pcm itself may be an issue too as the S-series gets older - electronics, especially the power transistors driving the pcm modulated xmission solenoids can wear out. There's only so many cycles of switching transistors before one fails. This would be the last stage of pcm operation related to automatics. Many other things need to be eliminated before pcm xmission control failure rears its head. And if you had GMs scantool, you'd have inside info on how to determine if the pcm, individual valve body solenoids or sensors are faulty. Then you'd have to be familiar with deeper understanding of interpreting advanced diagnosing/troubleshooting - at dealer level experience.

Thought pulling the PCM B fuse would reset the temp adaptive parameters ? And that you needed a GM scan tool to do the permanent adaptive parameters?

No doubt my 23 year car might have some wiring or connections that could suspect. Ill have to take a closer look at the wiring from the bus plate to the pcm.

Ty for the info!

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Old 11-06-2019, 07:05 PM   #10
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

When testing resistance of the transaxle actuators the best way is to check all of their resistances and compare to each other. Resistance of these varies with temperature, it even states as such in the factory manual. I'm not saying that is what is wrong but just something to think about. There is a "relearn" procedure after resetting parameters which will give the PCM a baseline to go off of instead of just giving the car back to a customer without driving the vehicle after a repair.

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Old 11-06-2019, 07:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Well, evidence over the years do show electronics 'wearing out' from heat, cold and vibration. If this wasn't true then please explain why my crank sensor as well as many others here in different models failed intermittently. And I do mean intermittently - engine heat cycling affecting it in the characteristic hot engine random die off until cooling off when the crank sensor operates again. This cycle repeats until its determined the sensor is the fault and not the ecm, injectors, fuel pump or ignition system for spark.

Another example is a pcm in the S-series failing. A very knowledgeable member here went thru every sensor to narrow down a persistent pcm that refused to leave open loop mode and enter closed loop mode. All sensors operated as designed but the pcm wouldn't enter closed loop mode. A used pcm was put in and closed loop mode occured after the usual engine warm up. The pcm failed. This member was so confident that once the pcm was determined faulty, replaced and ran successfully, he shipped his Saturn overseas to Europe. We never heard from him again.
I don't think the Crank Position Sensor is a solid state device like a transistor or diode. Given its location it is subject to vibration and heat but vibration will not wear out the PN junction of a transistor or diode. I think we differ in the definition of wear out. A transistor / diode / integrated circuit subject to its design tolerance will not wear out. What does happen is solder joint fail. Let's just agree we disagree on the term wear out.

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Old 11-06-2019, 09:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Intermittent Taat Shift Slam When Cold. Restart will fix issue.

The Hall effect sensor is the basis of the first electronic ignition system when contact points in distributors were replaced with solid state pickups when EFI systems were introduced. Crank sensors are solid state devices. When electronics 'wear out', an intermittent crank sensor that's supposed to be operating at 100% but fails to perform oss my definition of a worn out sensor - neither operating at 100% or 100% faulty. Surely you've come across electronics that neither operates at 100% effectiveness yet not fail completely. The excise of solder joint failure doesn't hold water in most electronics made since the IC chip was invented. Most circuit boards since Windows '95 are absent any wires as circuit design has shrunk to remove the human part of assembling boards with robotics performing the bulk of assembly operations. The last time I worked on a circuit board, around 2000, hot air desoldering was the equipment of choice with solder paste squeezed out of a hypodermic needle. Hot air soldering of IC chips with pin spacing of less than 1/64". Boards that fail nowadays are simply tossed and replaced. Repair is too labor intensive except in high value electronics.

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