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Old 03-01-2019, 10:25 PM   #1
Chris Arnold
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Default Cannot get rid of code P1404

This apparently has something to do with the EGR and according to one website:

Quote:
P1404 Saturn Description
The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) determines that the EGR valve is stuck open if the actual Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) position and the learned closed EGR position vary by more than a predetermined value. The PCM tests for a stuck valve when the desired EGR position is at 0%. The PCM commands the EGR valve to 100% during certain driving conditions in order to clear a possible restriction from the EGR valve if the PCM determines that the valve is stuck open. The PCM retests for a stuck valve when the desired EGR position returns to 0%. A failure timer increments if the stuck EGR valve condition is still present. This DTC sets when the timer reaches a predetermined value.
I replaced my original EGR with a part from O'reilly's that was $$$... something like $230. When the code came back on several times, I pulled the EGR back off, snaked the EGR ports, chased the wiring as far as I could without finding a hint of damage, and I replaced the EGR for a 2nd time under warranty, cleared the code and tried again. The SES light came on again. I found a post on here that suggested pulling the PCM B fuse to removed whatever stored data the PCM had on the original EGR position. It went away for about a week.

Now the light is back on and I'm pulling my hair out. I'm sick of dealing with it. I'm ready to take it to someone, but I have very little faith in most mechanics' ability to do anything right other than charge me a lot of money. I'd like to find a known good OEM EGR to see if there's something going on with these aftermarket ones from Oreilly's, but other than that, I'm out of ideas. I don't really give a damn about the EGR, and the car is running just fine.

Please help by suggesting anything I haven't considered and letting me know where I can get ahold of a quality OEM replacement EGR.

Thanks,

Chris
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Auto salvage yard, pull a used one.
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Old 03-02-2019, 07:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Same as me! My light has been on forever, Same code I've done checked everything!
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Chris Arnold, there's more info from the service manual in a previous post you made; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236095.

The pcm doesn't memorize what egr valve is used. Resetting the pcm erases all emissions monitors memorized for states requiring emissions inspection. The data is relearned as soon as the engine is started, car driven in regular driving. The emissions self tests are performed automatically and as each monitor passes, a ready status is shown on a reader. A vehicle may take a few days or more, depending on length of each drive before all monitors change from not ready/incomplete to ready/complete status. Any error code halts automatic emissions testing until the error is addressed or repaired. Once a correct repair is made, without pulling fuses or battery disconnect, the emissions self tests continue where it halted and should turn off the check engine light while resetting only the one monitor that failed. All other monitors have passed in this case. Fuse pulling or battery disconnect simply resets all parameters to factory defaults and the entire emissions self tests are begun as if the car left the factory in new condition, taking longer to fulfill each test. It's wiser to not pull fuses/battery disconnect if emissions inspection is due.

The egr valve has a feedback position sensor telling the pcm relative position. Since the egr valve is commanded (a slave unit) to move it's pintle valve, the feedback positron sensor tells the pcm if the valve moved to the commanded position or not. When the feedback signal doesn't match expected values, the error code is generated. In some cases, original valves are the recommended replacement while aftermarket valves work as alternative choices. There may be wiring issues, sticking pintle valve, faulty feedback sensor, faulty pintle valve coil, blocked egr exhaust port, blocked egr intake port, etc.
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Old 03-02-2019, 10:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
This apparently has something to do with the EGR and according to one website:



I replaced my original EGR with a part from O'reilly's that was $$$... something like $230. When the code came back on several times, I pulled the EGR back off, snaked the EGR ports, chased the wiring as far as I could without finding a hint of damage, and I replaced the EGR for a 2nd time under warranty, cleared the code and tried again. The SES light came on again. I found a post on here that suggested pulling the PCM B fuse to removed whatever stored data the PCM had on the original EGR position. It went away for about a week.

Now the light is back on and I'm pulling my hair out. I'm sick of dealing with it. I'm ready to take it to someone, but I have very little faith in most mechanics' ability to do anything right other than charge me a lot of money. I'd like to find a known good OEM EGR to see if there's something going on with these aftermarket ones from Oreilly's, but other than that, I'm out of ideas. I don't really give a damn about the EGR, and the car is running just fine.

Please help by suggesting anything I haven't considered and letting me know where I can get ahold of a quality OEM replacement EGR.

Thanks,

Chris
1404 is almost identical to the 404 DTC but only sets the SES on after 4 consecutive failures of the closed position test. Are you setting a SES light?

From the FSM
After a repair of this condition all codes must be cleared and the ignition keyed off for 10 seconds or longer. What this turns into in DIY terms is ypou pull the PCM B fuse for 5 or 210 seconds and then replace and leave the key off for at least 10 seconds. FYI Learned = Memorized and the closed position signal is stored in memory as a reference value.

The easy way, if there is one, is to install a screened EGR gasket and run it after clearing the codes and resetting everything. Do not attempt to clean the EGR as you can not get at the actual valve seat that is collecting crud which is what causes this problem. This is the Dorman part number for the screened EGR gasket(EGR gasket # 47007) and the parts store will insist it will not fit your car, they are incorrect.

You will have to go through this fuse pull reset routine several times until the valve crud level reaches a steady state level.

There is no point in paying the parts store for some Asian produced look alike OEM valve in a name brand box. The BWD or SMP branded valves are about as good as any aftermarket is going to get. Pulling a good valve from a clean running JY car is also an option and much lower cost.

The real cause of this is the result of that excessive oil consumption. KREEN, BCG or Auto-Rx are effective in some instances in reducing this to reasonable amounts.

I see you have been refered to a previous thread. The above may help you out. If you have installed the screened gasket info on oil consumption and any other attempt to fix this would cut down on repeating the same things over and over.

Last edited by OldNuc; 03-02-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:14 PM   #6
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Chris Arnold, there's more info from the service manual in a previous post you made; http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=236095.

The pcm doesn't memorize what egr valve is used. Resetting the pcm erases all emissions monitors memorized for states requiring emissions inspection. The data is relearned as soon as the engine is started, car driven in regular driving. The emissions self tests are performed automatically and as each monitor passes, a ready status is shown on a reader. A vehicle may take a few days or more, depending on length of each drive before all monitors change from not ready/incomplete to ready/complete status. Any error code halts automatic emissions testing until the error is addressed or repaired. Once a correct repair is made, without pulling fuses or battery disconnect, the emissions self tests continue where it halted and should turn off the check engine light while resetting only the one monitor that failed. All other monitors have passed in this case. Fuse pulling or battery disconnect simply resets all parameters to factory defaults and the entire emissions self tests are begun as if the car left the factory in new condition, taking longer to fulfill each test. It's wiser to not pull fuses/battery disconnect if emissions inspection is due.

The egr valve has a feedback position sensor telling the pcm relative position. Since the egr valve is commanded (a slave unit) to move it's pintle valve, the feedback positron sensor tells the pcm if the valve moved to the commanded position or not. When the feedback signal doesn't match expected values, the error code is generated. In some cases, original valves are the recommended replacement while aftermarket valves work as alternative choices. There may be wiring issues, sticking pintle valve, faulty feedback sensor, faulty pintle valve coil, blocked egr exhaust port, blocked egr intake port, etc.
Are you making a suggestion here?
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Old 03-02-2019, 08:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
1404 is almost identical to the 404 DTC but only sets the SES on after 4 consecutive failures of the closed position test. Are you setting a SES light?
Yes. It has continually set off the SES light.

Aside from that, would you please clarify specifically what step I should take next? Are you suggesting that the gasket alone is my issue and will clear up the problem? Are you suggesting replacing the store-bought EGR with your preferred brands? Are you suggesting that I should simply just keep repeating the fuse pulling step until it stays out?

Sorry, it's just that I'm at 4 months with this problem, have replaced the EGR twice, snaked the ports, chased the wires, pulled the fuse, and a partridge in a pear tree. It seems like your post went several different directions, and I'd just appreciate clear guidance on specifically what I should do next.

I really want to fix this issue, but I do not know what else to do. I can't get to a JY for an original EGR replacement. I wish I had a buddy with this car so I could swap EGRs and see if the light stayed off. I'm losing patience with a car I've loved to this point. I'm too anal, apparently, and I can't stand having the damned engine light on all the time. I will resolve this problem very shortly, or I'll be in another car.

Last edited by Chris Arnold; 03-02-2019 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
Are you making a suggestion here?
Without any positive info to make an informed opinion, I'm left with replacing the egr valve. If I had to troubleshoot this issue, I would use provided info to check wiring, voltages and signals to be sure the pcm is communicating with the egr valve. The egr valve only operates while accelerating and giving feedback position signals to the pcm. Its not commanded at idle rpm or wide open throttle. Presuming the intake and exhaust passages to the egr valve are relatively clean for free flow of intake of exhaust gases when the egr valve is cycled open, leaves mechanical movement of the pintle valve, how it moves and if the feedback position sensor is sending correct signals the pcm expects. A lot to consider but that's how I would troubleshoot this issue before spending money.

A used oem egr valve may be a less costly replacement but without any guarantees.
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
Yes. It has continually set off the SES light.

Aside from that, would you please clarify specifically what step I should take next? Are you suggesting that the gasket alone is my issue and will clear up the problem? Are you suggesting replacing the store-bought EGR with your preferred brands? Are you suggesting that I should simply just keep repeating the fuse pulling step until it stays out?

Sorry, it's just that I'm at 4 months with this problem, have replaced the EGR twice, snaked the ports, chased the wires, pulled the fuse, and a partridge in a pear tree. It seems like your post went several different directions, and I'd just appreciate clear guidance on specifically what I should do next.

I really want to fix this issue, but I do not know what else to do. I can't get to a JY for an original EGR replacement. I wish I had a buddy with this car so I could swap EGRs and see if the light stayed off. I'm losing patience with a car I've loved to this point. I'm too anal, apparently, and I can't stand having the damned engine light on all the time. I will resolve this problem very shortly, or I'll be in another car.
Like most of these vexing 3rd gen car issues they turn into a process not a single simple one size fits all step.

The EGR is likely functioning fine. You did not mention it but I suspect you are burning oil and if that is indeed the case then the type and brand is somewhat critical so that info would help.

The first thing I would do is go spent the $5 or so for that screen gasket and install it then clear the fool codes again and start keeping a log so you know how quick it sets an SES again. As I said the idea is to find out what the steady state level of seat crud is going to be constant which then terminates the continuous errors.

Buying another valve or going JY shopping is not going to fix this as the valve is actually working.

You have previously completed most or all of the other recommended steps. To repeat, there is no easy fix for this and I will add if the engine was rebuilt this issue would very likely go away.

The reason that screen works is it creates sufficient restriction and turbulence to break up the small carbon chunks that in many cases are the actual cause of the not full closed condition. It is more than just a chunk of stainless steel screen. How long it takes to solve this 404/1404 issue is unknown but when you get an SES it helps to know which code it is as they are different but related.
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Old 03-02-2019, 09:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

To add to the above. Using search will not likely lead to a solution as I have seen very few of these EGR issues posted as fixed. This is unfortunate as it is unknown if the suggested repair/replace solved the issue or not.
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Old 03-03-2019, 01:46 AM   #11
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Without any positive info to make an informed opinion, I'm left with replacing the egr valve. If I had to troubleshoot this issue, I would use provided info to check wiring, voltages and signals to be sure the pcm is communicating with the egr valve. The egr valve only operates while accelerating and giving feedback position signals to the pcm. Its not commanded at idle rpm or wide open throttle. Presuming the intake and exhaust passages to the egr valve are relatively clean for free flow of intake of exhaust gases when the egr valve is cycled open, leaves mechanical movement of the pintle valve, how it moves and if the feedback position sensor is sending correct signals the pcm expects. A lot to consider but that's how I would troubleshoot this issue before spending money.

A used oem egr valve may be a less costly replacement but without any guarantees.

Ok, thank you. I will try to find an OEM EGR valve. One of my buddies is willing to help check his local yards for me. I'll also order one of OldNuc's recommended valves; I don't care about the money anymore. I want to rule stuff out permanently. Plus, I think I can get a refund from O'reilly's for well more than the cost of both.

A mechanic buddy near me has a nice set of professional scan tools that can apparently read everything going on with the EGR. That's definitely better than me trying to t-pin wires and so forth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The EGR is likely functioning fine. You did not mention it but I suspect you are burning oil and if that is indeed the case then the type and brand is somewhat critical so that info would help.
Mobil 1. Sometimes I'll top it off with whatever is at the gas station, though I usually keep a quart of Mobil 1 with me for this. I don't keep track as closely as I used to, but I'd guess that I burn 1-1.5 quarts every 4k miles, which is my OCI (I know, I know...).

Quote:
The first thing I would do is go spent the $5 or so for that screen gasket and install it then clear the fool codes again and start keeping a log so you know how quick it sets an SES again. As I said the idea is to find out what the steady state level of seat crud is going to be constant which then terminates the continuous errors.
Ok, the gasket is on order from amazon. I'll get it in a couple days.

Quote:
Buying another valve or going JY shopping is not going to fix this as the valve is actually working.
I agree that it's unlikely I've run through 2 bogus parts store valves, but stranger things have happened to me with aftermarket parts before. Though, be that as it may, I'm willing to try anything that has a chance.

Quote:
You have previously completed most or all of the other recommended steps. To repeat, there is no easy fix for this and I will add if the engine was rebuilt this issue would very likely go away.
That is definitely not happening, and neither is driving around with a relentless SES from 140k miles until whenever it fails. What a shame if this is the case, because I really thought if I took care of the car, it'd go 200-300k miles, no sweat. I'm sure it would, but I'm not going to be annoyed every time I start up the car in the morning. Let's hope less drastic measures prevail.

Quote:
The reason that screen works is it creates sufficient restriction and turbulence to break up the small carbon chunks that in many cases are the actual cause of the not full closed condition. It is more than just a chunk of stainless steel screen. How long it takes to solve this 404/1404 issue is unknown but when you get an SES it helps to know which code it is as they are different but related.
It was P1404. If I'm not mistaken, when it originally went bad, there was also another code, but at least for the last several cycles, this has been the only code. I bought a bluetooth MX+ OBD2 scan tool for this issue. I can see the code, and I can clear it. I cannot see the voltages specific to the EGR from the base software/application, but I would be interested in better software if it allowed me to do those things.

Thank you for your assistance, OldNuc.

Last edited by Chris Arnold; 03-03-2019 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 03-03-2019, 02:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Here, in the attachment, are screenshots from the most recent code thrown. Any idea about the 2nd screenshot? I think it was a mode 6 test or something.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20bea044-d4fd-45cc-ab6b-fefc8c9451cd.jpg (55.0 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg f6528a25-7824-4f5b-b14b-e82b3eaa24e9.jpg (97.0 KB, 16 views)
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Old 03-03-2019, 10:09 AM   #13
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Looking at all of that info there seems to be an out of range zero value. That may be the issue. Finding a good JY valve or check amazon for the SMP valve, https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Moto...002+Saturn+SC2 Might find it at a lower cost on greedBay.

Your oil consumption is within the range where these screen gaskets work very well.

IF that zero value is the full closed position info then that is what is initiating the 1404 as it is supposed to be slightly above zero.

I agree the failure rate of aftermarket parts is excessive and the quality control is less than adequate.

1)install screen.
2)locate another EGR, known good preferably.
3)see what happens.

The wiring is good as shown by your results so it is not a problem you will find by testing wiring. A good scanner that will cycle the EGR might be interesting but few scanners will actually tell you what the PCM will accept as an OK value range and this is what you need to know to evaluate the detected closed position against the desired.<-this is the info I would be after if you can find someone who will do this without charging an arm and a leg.
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Old 03-03-2019, 02:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

https://www.troublecodes.net/p1codes/p1404/

GM has a TSB for the issue, on certain engines.

By process of elimination, IF the above steps you are performing do NOT resolve the "Service Engine Soon" light and P1404 DTC, you may have to find a Tech-II scan tool and reflash the PCM with updated software.

This may require an expensive trip to the dealership, which I think they will typically charge about $125 for a software reprogram procedure.
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Old 03-03-2019, 02:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The wiring is good as shown by your results so it is not a problem you will find by testing wiring. A good scanner that will cycle the EGR might be interesting but few scanners will actually tell you what the PCM will accept as an OK value range and this is what you need to know to evaluate the detected closed position against the desired.<-this is the info I would be after if you can find someone who will do this without charging an arm and a leg.
That's relieving to know. Was one of the checks on the 2nd screen a wiring test, or how did you know? I was worried that the 0 value might actually indicate a wiring problem.

I'll see what I can dig up on the range info. I hope my buddy's snap on scan tool can do those things. We'll see... I'm afraid to just farm out work like this, these days. Too many shops can't or won't do proper diagnostics to begin with, and I'd just end up paying for what I've already done with marked up parts prices, get the car back with no SES, but then it's back in a week and they'll claim it's something new, or when they're out of options they'll throw their hands up and I'm in the same position with a lighter bill-fold. I miss my old mechanic at my last duty-station. I trusted that guy.

Oh, and I looked at my receipt from the parts store. My 2 EGR valve replacements were BWD. I ordered the SMP one from summitracing. It only worked out a couple $ more, and I don't trust amazon to send the genuine part represented as much.
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:01 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

When i had 1404 issues that kept coming back it was because I had a “bent or burnt exhaust valve” according to mechanic. And based on all i did to fix it prior, I believed him
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Interesting. If it's an EGR position error, I wonder how a damaged exhaust valve would cause that. Were there any other symptoms? In mine, the car runs perfectly normally, as far as I can tell.
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

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When i had 1404 issues that kept coming back it was because I had a “bent or burnt exhaust valve” according to mechanic. And based on all i did to fix it prior, I believed him
Symptoms of a "bent/burnt" valve will cause a LOT more problems, than a P1404 code.

I have burnt an exhaust valve.

Symptoms will include:
Possible DTCs for the cylinder misfire w/OBD-II systems(P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303, and/or P0304)
Extremely rough idle
0 psi of compression in the cylinder with burnt valve
Poor fuel economy
Severe power loss
Misfire that starts smoothing out, as engine rpm increases
Possible "no-start" condition on a cold start and in colder temperatures
Completely fouled spark plug in the dead cylinder.
...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."
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Old 03-03-2019, 03:42 PM   #19
OldNuc
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
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1998 SC2
Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Arnold View Post
Interesting. If it's an EGR position error, I wonder how a damaged exhaust valve would cause that. Were there any other symptoms? In mine, the car runs perfectly normally, as far as I can tell.
If you have a smooth idle the valves are fine and the EGR is not leaking either. It is highly likely that the position wiper and the end of the sensing resistance element are out of position. In simple english the valve is incorrectly assembled.

The post above is the remaining list for toasted valves, one or more.
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Old 03-03-2019, 06:17 PM   #20
Cheyne
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2000 SL2
Default Re: Cannot get rid of code P1404

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
To add to the above. Using search will not likely lead to a solution as I have seen very few of these EGR issues posted as fixed. This is unfortunate as it is unknown if the suggested repair/replace solved the issue or not.
I had a P0404 or P1404, can't remember which, some years ago on another SL2 that was also accompanied with sudden symptoms. I believe it was the 404. I cleaned the EGR valve and cranked the car to blow out the ports. Added the screened gasket and never had it appear again. I do clean the EGR valve and blow out the ports as part of my annual maintenance. I now also use a screened gasket on subsequent cars and clean the screen when doing the above.

Chris, what prompted changing the EGR valve? Same code? Symtoms? Do you still have the original EGR valve? As has been mentioned, some of the aftermarket ones have been reported to have issues.
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