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Old 04-18-2014, 09:29 PM   #1
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Default Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

So I was getting vibration in my cabin at start up and warm-up and figured I'd replace the top mount to get rid of it. I followed the instructions by Richpin via his youtube video and all went very smoothly. Unfortunately, the vibration s still there and maybe even a bit worse.

The original mount was a frowny style and was almost completely sheared in half from front to back, so it definitely needed to be changed. The new one I installed is a Westar EM-2827 solid-type mount. It is noticeably different than the original so I know it's not another frowny style.

The only problem I encountered is that the timing cover studs don't pertrude out as far since the new mount is thicker. However, there are still some threads (about 2 turns) above the top of the nuts so I don't think that's an issue.

So is this just the way it is or could there be a problem?
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Old 04-18-2014, 09:40 PM   #2
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Why didn't you get the longer studs that are generally required when changing to the solid style mount?
That doesn't have anything to do with the vibrations, which are caused by using a non OEM part.
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Longer Studs...

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Old 04-18-2014, 11:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Why didn't you get the longer studs that are generally required when changing to the solid style mount?
That doesn't have anything to do with the vibrations, which are caused by using a non OEM part.
I wasn't sure this particular mount needed longer studs until I installed it. Do the OEM mounts require longer studs as well?
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Most '96-'99's came with the 2nd design style mount, the "Frowny". '91-'95 came with the first design, the solid type, and '00-'02 use design 3 which is technically design 1.


Going from the frowny style to the solid style requires longer studs. The metal bit that mates to the timing cover is roughly 1/4in thicker on the solid style than the frowny.
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Old 04-19-2014, 07:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

According to richpin06a your vehicle and mine are very similar. There are 2 engine mounts that require replacement. You say that you replaced the top engine but don't metion whether you replaced the bottom engine mount (I believe its on the driver side. You have to remove the front wheel/tire and plastic fender panels to access it, and use a hydraulic jack to assist in removal and replacement). richpin06a has a youtube video that covers this procedure.
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

There of 4 total "engine mounts"
Tam-the one you replaced
Tranny mount- passenger side beneath tranny
2 torque struts or dogbones- 1 beneath passenger side of engine ,1 tranny side of engine beneath battery tray

The dogbones come in pairs and if your tam was as bad as you say it was I would bet these are gone too
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Old 04-19-2014, 09:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Those short studs are an issue so run to the local JY and get 3 of the long ones. Look for any non frown type mount car and those are correct. Those studs must be screwed completely to the bottom of the timing cover holes or you will crack the cover.

Obtaining vibration free operation with non-OEM top and transmission mounts will be challenging. This is not a 15minute project either.

OEM top mount, trans mount, late 97 or newer torque axis struts and the polly inserts. Engine must have an even smooth idle. That means good even compression. Clean flow balanced injectors. The 3 rubber exhaust mounts should not be stretched when the car is at rest, just supporting the exhaust. These 3 suspension pieces will be what couples the exhaust vibration into the floor pan so the stretchiness and thickness of these is how you tune them to not appear solid at some inconvenient RPM. The Walker 35119 isolator is thicker than the original OEM. They are cheap so modifying them is not a big deal. They thin nicely on a belt sander but if too thin they break and you will be buying a new exhaust.

If you have an uneven idle you will never reduce the vibration to zero. Setting the torque axis struts to zero tension/compression at rest is critical.

The torque axis struts are of 3 different designs and the 3rd design, late 97 production, have replaceable inserts. These are the stamped and welded design. There are 2 pictures in my gallery. What you are attempting to accomplish is restrain the engine free motion as much as possible without going solid. The main axis of rotation is on a line between the top mount and transaxle mount. The torque axis struts are positioned to restrain the normal torque reaction and drive axle wind up. The poly inserts allow enough motion to not act as a solid link but do not transmit vibration well either. The idea is to keep large excursions of the engine/transmission and exhaust to a minimum. Small displacement of the power train transmits to large displacement in the exhaust. The rubber hangers will deftly transmit this exhaust motion into the floor pan which simulates the head on a large kettle drum, with you inside of it. You can get a buzz in the floor that does not transmit into the upper frame or seats but the large low frequency pan displacement is pushed up to a higher frequency. the characteristics of the rubber mounts determines where this buzz occurs. The trick is to get it somewhere you do not care. By minimizing the powertrain displacement you minimize the magnitude of the exhaust displacement you have to deal with. You can slightly change the static exhaust position to take all the stress off of the flex connector and have the mass of the exhaust evenly spread over the 3 mount points. The muffler hanger basically controls axial twist on the exhaust. I used the Walker 35119 isolators and just stuck them on. Ended up with the buzz from about 50 to 57mph and this is a speed range that is only passed through so I did not pursue any further elimination. the bed liner should kill this 50-57 mph buzz all by itself. The OEM isolators are a softer rubber and thinner and would possibly isolate the floor better but as they were 10+ years old and I am adverse to dragging the exhaust down the road I decided to replace them. The harder-thicker isolator appears as a solid at given frequencies.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bachands View Post
So I was getting vibration in my cabin at start up and warm-up and figured I'd replace the top mount to get rid of it. I followed the instructions by Richpin via his youtube video and all went very smoothly. Unfortunately, the vibration s still there and maybe even a bit worse.

The original mount was a frowny style and was almost completely sheared in half from front to back, so it definitely needed to be changed. The new one I installed is a Westar EM-2827 solid-type mount. It is noticeably different than the original so I know it's not another frowny style.

The only problem I encountered is that the timing cover studs don't pertrude out as far since the new mount is thicker. However, there are still some threads (about 2 turns) above the top of the nuts so I don't think that's an issue.

So is this just the way it is or could there be a problem?
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Old 04-20-2014, 06:57 PM   #9
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good info from everyone.....it's been noted. But I was still convinced something wasn't right about this....and I found it!!

The threads in the timing cover hole(closest to the front of the vehicle) are stripped. My guess is that either I did that somehow when removing the nut the first time, or the PO over-tightened it and stripped it. I believe it was the PO since loosening that top nut shouldn't strip the threads in the timing cover....that wouldn't make sense to me. At any rate, I essentially only have 2 studs holding up the engine. That would cause excessive vibration wouldn't it?

So at this point what are my options? Maybe I can re-tap that one hole and try to find a stud with larger threads. If that won't work then I have to buy a new timing cover with good threads. That seems like it would be quite a lot of work to remove and re-install a timing cover just for those threads; but these are my only options as far as I understand. Any thoughts?
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Old 04-20-2014, 07:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Helicoil?
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

I'd heli coil with locktite should do just fine
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeuces22 View Post
I'd heli coil with locktite should do just fine
Okay, so that's 2 suggestions for heli coil. Honestly, I am unaware of what this is. What am I looking at here?
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

They sell kits under the name heli-coil or fix-a-thread ... Same product different brand.
The kit should come with the coils, a tap and a tap handle/helicoil installer.

It's recommended to drill the hole out first then tap it then install the coil. However when your working with aluminum, it's such a soft metal you can really skip the drilling steps if your careful and follow the instructions below
1.)I keep tightening the bolt to remove as many threads as it will remove.
2.)I use some kind of lubricant and tap the new hole with the supplied tap. You can use cutting oil, regular oil, ATF etc.
3.) keep the hole clean and work the tap forward then back then forward them backward. Clean the hole with q-tips and remove shavings from tap every now and then.
4.) if it gets too tight backtrack and repeat 4.
5.) use installer to put the coil in. This will provide you with the same thread size and pitch as the oem hole so you don't need new hardware.

Like I said I would use locktite when your installing the coil, preferably red. Also make sure the locktite dries before you put your stud back in otherwise that will be a pain in the ass to remove
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:27 PM   #14
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddeuces22 View Post
They sell kits under the name heli-coil or fix-a-thread ... Same product different brand.
The kit should come with the coils, a tap and a tap handle/helicoil installer.

It's recommended to drill the hole out first then tap it then install the coil. However when your working with aluminum, it's such a soft metal you can really skip the drilling steps if your careful and follow the instructions below
1.)I keep tightening the bolt to remove as many threads as it will remove.
2.)I use some kind of lubricant and tap the new hole with the supplied tap. You can use cutting oil, regular oil, ATF etc.
3.) keep the hole clean and work the tap forward then back then forward them backward. Clean the hole with q-tips and remove shavings from tap every now and then.
4.) if it gets too tight backtrack and repeat 4.
5.) use installer to put the coil in. This will provide you with the same thread size and pitch as the oem hole so you don't need new hardware.

Like I said I would use locktite when your installing the coil, preferably red. Also make sure the locktite dries before you put your stud back in otherwise that will be a pain in the ass to remove
This looks to be the best way to fix the threads without replacing the timing cover. Thanks for your input.

As I'm watching videos on how this is done, the only thing I'm concerned about is the amount of space I have to work with. If I try to use the handle part on the other end, it will be hitting the valve cover. Any way I could avoid this? Or get around it?
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Okay, so here's what I've gathered so far....

I read this thread (mainly posts #8 & #9): http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...ripped+threads

So the size I will be needing is M10x1.5. And since there are quite a bit of threads in this case, I need at least a 15mm long helicoil insert. If this is correct, the following kit: http://www.use-enco.com/1/1/16709-54...pair-kits.html should give me all the tools I need for this (minus the tap wrench, oil, and cleaning supplies).

And I should put some red high strength Loctite on the helicoil before installation, let it dry completely after installed, then finally insert the stud. How does this sound?
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachands View Post
The new one I installed is a Westar EM-2827 solid-type mount. It is noticeably different than the original so I know it's not another frowny style.

The aftermarket mounts are junk, Use OEM ones for the lower Trans mount and Top engine mount, The dogbones you could get away with aftermarket but the other two absolutly not, The solid mount requires the use of revised longer studs, Those need to be installed prior to installation of that new top mount, After you install the top mount its necessary to loosen and re-tighten the lower engine dogbone mount on teh passener side to remove the pre-load and align the whole system correctly, The lower dogbone mounting bracket is held in place with two 15MM nuts that come through the bottom of the engine cradle.
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bachands View Post

The threads in the timing cover hole(closest to the front of the vehicle) are stripped. My guess is that either I did that somehow when removing the nut the first time, or the PO over-tightened it and stripped it.
The cause of the threads stripping out was due to the fact the shorter stud was used for the solid mount, The stud wasnt bottomed out in the timing cover prior to the install......
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SL19302 View Post
The cause of the threads stripping out was due to the fact the shorter stud was used for the solid mount, The stud wasnt bottomed out in the timing cover prior to the install......
Yeah, that sounds about right. If there are any step by step written instructions for installing the top mount on a 2nd generation Saturn, being sure to re-tighten the studs into the timing cover BEFORE tightening the top nuts on the new mount should be included.

My threads were probably fine before the change. And even if I installed a new frowny style mount that didn't require longer studs, I wouldn't have known to check the studs to be tightened all the way before installing it. Obviously if I installed new longer studs this probably wouldn't have happened. Learning is tough sometimes.....

But what's done is done....moving on.
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

The link you posted looks like a nice complete kit, comes with the drill bit and everything except like you said a tap handle. You can pick up a tap handle for cheap at harbor freight, sears, any of the flaps stores. I've also used an adjustable crescent but it makes things a little trickier.

I don't know the exact length of threads so I can't verify if 15mm is too long or not. It almost looks like there's 3 different size coils included but I'm not entirely sure. As far as clearance issues go, I believe the tap should be 3/8 male so you could most likely use a short 3/8 extension before your tap handle/adjustable wrench whatever you decide to use.
Then like you said locktite it up after, spray the hole with some kind of cleaner before installation to remove the oil then locktite. And I would use red over blue because your hoping for a permanent fix.

One thing to keep in mind is you really don't want any weight on those studs/nuts. When your snugging up the nuts after, make sure your not pulling the engine up by doing this. The timing cover should be flush with the mount when tightening the nuts. Use a block of wood with a jack to raise or lower the engine to your needed height. And I like the work middle then out with the nuts, saving final torque down till all 3 nuts are snug
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: Motor mount changed, still vibrates hard.

P.s. You can also find a cheaper set local under fix-a-thread. Use a discount code and pick up at advance for about 20ish. But I don't think the coils are quite as long as what your getting with the above link. You also won't get the drill bit, fancy case, and nub break off tool
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